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coderanger
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl,
There's no file containing the connectivity (see man 5 NetworkManager.conf) directive in files installed by Gentoo,
Code:
# find /etc /usr /lib /lib64 -type f -exec grep -lh '\[connectivity\]' {} \;
(empty output)
In Arch NM does ping arch servers. In Gentoo - does not. It's easy to check with tcpdump on external interface.


Last edited by coderanger on Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
The only thing where I addressed someone directly is that I blamed the gentoo-developers for use.stable.masking system-bootstrap (and not making it the default). Not use-masking is rather a different thing than declaring stable, so your comments concerning this base on a misunderstanding.


Nope. You were not reading careful, what I have written. You cannot blame gentoo devs for that!!!
I told you already you can't build Rust with Rust installed on your system for the certain versions numbers.

Here they did everything correctly! You were also pointed to the bug in that regard.

So I am absolutely correct - you blame wrong people.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
why.... why are YOU so tied up with everyone else? Why do your choices have to be everyone else's? I don't get that.

Neddy doesn't force his choices on other people. we have redHat and freDesktop.org to do that.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
ilike... just take a minute to consider that. out of 7-8 billion people, how much of an accident you really are. And is that hill worth dying for?


It's the only hill worth dying for.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
I wanted to say LFS. which is... well, I would take it as an insult.


I have found LFS very useful in developing ebuilds. Quite often, a DEV says something is required when it's only required for his use case.
LFS is more minimalistic?
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lefsha
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
coderanger wrote:
lefsha wrote:
Anyone aware, that Networkmanager in Gentoo is permanently pinging one of Gentoo sites?

what is your evidence?


it has to ping something to know it itself is online. what would you have it ping?

EDIT: it stands to reason for gentoo to ping gentoo. also gentoo has to time sync to gentoo. if you think about it, ntp and rsync are the 2 services we all use.


It has to do nothing. It works well without it!
If Gentoo site is down it doesn't mean Internet is down.

It's totally not required and not secure.


P.S. Please, leave Neddy alone with static /dev. Frankly it is not your business what any one is doing on his computer.
Same people injected systemd to Linux world. They also thought it is their business what other people do. It is NOT.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coderanger wrote:
axl,
There's no file containing the connectivity (see man 5 NetworkManager.conf) directive in files installed by Gentoo,
Code:
# find /etc /usr /lib /lib64 -type f -exec grep -lh '\[connectivity\]' {} \;
(empty output)
In Arch NM does ping arch servers. In Gentoo - does not. It's easy to check with tcpdump on external interface.


Actually you might be correct. It's a good chance I have detected that while was on Arch.
Now at Gentoo I am using iwd. No NM anymore.

I take my words back and ask for excuse by Gentoo developers! :oops:
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
axl wrote:
why.... why are YOU so tied up with everyone else? Why do your choices have to be everyone else's? I don't get that.

Neddy doesn't force his choices on other people. we have redHat and freDesktop.org to do that.


Perfectly said!

After long debates we came to the conclusion, that Neddy is allowed to continue using static /dev.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

let's just ask the man, if he is willing to share. are you neddy ready to share your static /dev recipe?

if anything, we'll know if it was all in vain. personally I am invested enough to ask neddy.

not the mob. the chorus. you guys. where is my guy the moose?

now. jokes aside, you/we/us are such a fucking minority. it's hard to calculate how many zeroes after the dot.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
After long debates we came to the conclusion, that Neddy is allowed to continue using static /dev.


BTW, I don't use udev either. I have eudev installed to satisfy portage, but I don't start ythe daemon. My /dev is populated by an enhanced mdev. Once there was a wiki page "Mdev like a Boss". I got the extensions there.

"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays. And every single one of them is right." Kipling would love Olde Gentoo.


Last edited by Tony0945 on Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
it's hard to calculate how many zeroes after the dot.

"What counts is not the number of zeroes, it's the incidence of heroes." Robert Heinlein.

NeddySeagoon is a hero. Who is probably blushing now.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
axl,

Yep, I have both /proc and /sys. They are kernel data structures exposed as filesystem.


and what is /dev?

man 5 tmpfs
man 5 filesystems
man 1 mknod
man 7 standards

Educate yourself before you tell other people they're using the computer wrong again.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl.

axl wrote:
why.... why are YOU so tied up with everyone else? Why do your choices have to be everyone else's? I don't get that.


I don't mind how other users design their distro.
I'm only here for the problem solving. If I wasn't solving other peoples problems, I would be breaking my own Gentoo. I do that too :)

Back to your quote.
In 1978 The BBC aired a James Burke TV series called Connections. Its still relevant today.
Its worth buying for the titles and first episode alone.

Watch the first episode then ask yourself if you are a survivor.
Static /dev is a part of my survival toolkit

Quote:
Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler

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Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
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lefsha
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
lefsha wrote:
After long debates we came to the conclusion, that Neddy is allowed to continue using static /dev.


BTW, I don't use udev either. I have eudev installed to satisfy portage, but I don't start ythe daemon. My /dev is populated by an enhanced mdev. Once there was a wiki page "Mdev like a Boss". I got the extensions there.

"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays. And every single one of them is right." Kipling would love Olde Gentoo.


There is NO Olde Gentoo anymore.

Instead of seeing the whole dependency tree and problems in there like it was 10+ years ago. I see VERY limited message
of what is wrong. Terrible. I would love to work with old portage instead of new one.

The most terrible situation is when some dependency required unstable version. Each time it report about only 1 package which doesn't satisfy
the dependency. If there are 100 of them one has to call emerge -ask -tree 100 times to modify what should be allowed to install.

Before I remember to see the full list (tree) of packages, which are gonna be installed. Whether they can be installed or not is the different question.

Frankly besides using git for repos I can't see ANY improvements provided by Gentoo since 2004.
Most terrible feature is pre-emerge check.

I would dream to downgrade Gentoo back to 2004 with only git repos allowed.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha,

lefsha wrote:
I would dream to downgrade Gentoo back to 2004 with only git repos allowed.


You can do that. All the ebuilds that were ever in the ::gentoo repo are still online.
Rather like a Hayns manual, Reassembly is the reversal of the disassembly steps, which are documented on the wiki. HOWTO Update Old Gentoo.

You reverse the steps there.
The exact implementation detail is left as an exercise for the reader.

In 2004 there was only static /dev, so the static /dev guide may be useful along the way. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll fail to fetch more than 50% of tarballs though.
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backend.cpp:92:2: warning: #warning TODO - this error message is about as useful as a cooling unit in the arctic
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
You can do that. All the ebuilds that were ever in the ::gentoo repo are still online.


Old portage means old python - I don't have python2 anymore.
Old portage mean old repo.
Old repo means old libraries and no compatibility with new things.
All that means too much work not for changing, but for supporting.

At my age I should be using binary based distro and drink Cognac looking at fishes swimming on the screen or
in the sea (better). But like you I can't stand some new "features". I do have a little hope, that after people
will be sated with that grass they will come back or switch to something new. May be I am wrong.

Gentoo alone is much work. I can't break my system more often than I do today.
Don't have time for that.

All revolutionists are young people. The older one get the more one tend to be a conformist.
There is a sweet spot in life at some age. Then one get older and young generation is starting
changing your world. You may stick with all power at old known things or let them drive you towards their future.

That game is repeating again and again. The over-next generation will break again what the next has done.

P.S. It will be interesting to know the users average age for each distro available.
My guess is that Gentoo users are getting older faster than others.
And most likely the winner will be... Android.

P.P.S. Just make a thought experiment and try in front of a mirror to explain why static /dev is better to 18y teenager.
You won't find a single reason. It will be even tough to speak up. Just looking in his/her eye you will understand
- you don't need to know that kid, go and make party.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
In 1978 The BBC aired a James Burke TV series called Connections. Its still relevant today.
Its worth buying for the titles and first episode alone.

I have Connections & Connections II on video tape, somewhere! Yes, it was awesome. Although I definitely don't have all the Doctor Who's, I might have all the Doctor Who's that aired on PBS in the USA. If they aren't too stiff to run. Some must be 40 years old. I'm not even sure that my 20 year old VCR still runs. My old turntable doesn't. The motors grease has all leaked out. And as for the eight tracks that I recorded off the air in the '70s...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

https://archive.org/details/ConnectionsByJamesBurke/Connections/Season+1/Connections+S01E01+-+The+Trigger+Effect.mp4
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
axl.

axl wrote:
why.... why are YOU so tied up with everyone else? Why do your choices have to be everyone else's? I don't get that.


I don't mind how other users design their distro.
I'm only here for the problem solving. If I wasn't solving other peoples problems, I would be breaking my own Gentoo. I do that too :)

Back to your quote.
In 1978 The BBC aired a James Burke TV series called Connections. Its still relevant today.
Its worth buying for the titles and first episode alone.

Watch the first episode then ask yourself if you are a survivor.
Static /dev is a part of my survival toolkit

Quote:
Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler



I love... wait. let me start with something else. I hope everyone realizes I am not trying to challenge you. It's just chat.

OK. going back to what I was saying. I ABSOLUTELY love the idea of building everything back from the ground up, in an apocalypse scenario. But again, static dev is taking things one step too far. Even in an apocalypse.

Again, just a friendly chat. But it's like trying to build a system out of vacuum tubes. Because VT were the best. Or a mechanical computer because that was the best. It obviously isn't. And I offer this example because I am 1000% sure (as linus is btw) that the quantum computer can't happen. and wont happen. and we can't be blindsighted by it. And yet, there's a high probability that the same way in the 60's they came up with the silicon chip that is now maxxed out, they will come up with something else. I don't know what it is, or if it's quantum. Like linus, I'm having a bit of trouble imagining porting the entire software base to something that is not binary. well, if it's not binary... what is it? And ... yeah...

My question is, and I see people called prepers, or survivalists, or just people waiting for the apocalypse... what if the apocalypse doesn't come? and we keep on progressing. what then?

BTW, if an apocalypse level event comes, computers will be your last problem. everyone thinks that THIS particular piece of stuff is meant to be saved, because it will make a world of difference. it wont. the sun... now that would make a difference. there's the possibility of a super vulcano darkening the atmosphere for years. you will be praying for some sunlight. some clean water. perhaps 2-3 hours of sleep without cannibals trying to murder you. the one thing you wont need, is a static dev.

I mean, any calamity that could happen, wont be saved by static dev. let me think. nope. not one. I think your survival toolkit is based on what you loved as a youth. perhaps that's why i feel that basketball was useful. it prolly wasn't.


I'll even go one further. They should just retire the concept of "everything is a file" and make /dev, /proc and /sys abstract. not directories with files. :))

I bet blood is boiling tonight :))

Why? Because it gave users a false security feel that everything is a file. It's not. Most things in /dev /proc /sys are pointers. not a file. so... yeah... that is a problem. and again, I get how ONE guy, that always has the same freaking hardware, doesn't want udev. I get it. But that one guy, should realize that he is the exception, not the rule. And everyone else does change hardware.

And the rest of the guys... thanks for the chorus. I have never ever heard of mknod. tell me more?!:))
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some musicians are mainatining vacuum tube amplifiers because of fidelity. Tubes are going for high prices on eBay.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Tony0945,

https://archive.org/details/ConnectionsByJamesBurke/Connections/Season+1/Connections+S01E01+-+The+Trigger+Effect.mp4

Thanks! oalemoon won't play it, but I downloaded with wget and xine plays it perfectly.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Some musicians are mainatining vacuum tube amplifiers because of fidelity. Tubes are going for high prices on eBay.


Hey tony. Where is moose?!


But no, really, you are making my point for me.

I had the pleasure of meeting a "sound" guy. the explained to me a lot of things. I swear to God he was making it up. I couldn't tell the difference. But then on the other hand I can't tell the difference between a creative board made with pretty much gold, and my onboard sound card. I had creative boards for like 20 years. all with gold. like the mclaren of sound cards. to be honest... i can't tell the difference.

and it's the same thing with guys fascinated with pickup disks. wait. in english they are not called that. with... vinyl.

listen, back in like VERY early 90s, I got a minidisc from japan. it didn't have english stuff on it, but it was manageable. and it had record on it. it was my first experience with recording digital media. it wasn't the CD. it was the minidisc. which, is an elusive thing, like the zip drive.

digital is exactly that. perfect. analog is not perfect, by any stretch of the imagination. is just ... romantic. but that's another thing. let's not confuse them.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concede by default. When you tell me you have something from the 60's that has vacuum tubes, I just concede it's cool. And nothing else has to be said.


But, I'm sitting, atm, on 9980xe, with 128Gb of ram. and rootfs is a zram0 device. As cool as vacuum tubes are... I'm not going back. I actually think nvme is too slow, and ramfs is too wasteful, so zram for me baby.

there is no way back to vacuum tubes.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

back when I was a child, I remember we had a Grundig radio unit.

I killed that unit when I was in highschool. Removed the speaker from it. I ... was stupid. I expected to find 3 speakers in that unit, one for high notes, ones for mediums and one for bass. The whole thing was just a big radio thing, with german parts from the 60's. and all I cared about was the speaker. So stupid. But then again, it's not the most stupid thing I ever did. For that ... we would have to go back to when I was 16, and I thought that an Omega watch is just like lego. you can always put it back together. spoiler alert... you can't.

I destroyed that radio for a very stupid reasons. I just wanted to use whatever speakers to make a super big speaker. again... spoiler alert... it doesn't work.

But going back to what we were talking about in the first place. Old things are for young people to ruin. And for old folks to get outraged about. And then the cycle just repeats. uhm... what is wrong with that?
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