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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha,

Quote:
Even if we take the desktop land. Previously no one needed "elogind" or "eudev" which are pieces of systemd.
Now it doesn't work without them. We all rely on systemd component or their replacement to be able to run
our DE or WM. Is it possible to get rid of them on your system? - Theoretically yes, but practically - Not.


Old Fashioned Gentoo Install works for me. That page needs some TLC and additions for configuring Xorg.
No systemd, udev, eudev, elogind .... Mate and Xfce4 are fairly happy.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Back to topic ... In my opinion, Rust is like systemd, some good ideas badly implemented because it was never properly designed.


1. The discussion has been started with Rust as the dependency of a program written in Rust.
2. How good or bad Rust may be is a different question. It is not related to Gentoo.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Ask yourself if you would want either in a flight control computer that your life depends on? As I believe in KISS, I have a fully static system for my main desktop ... because I still remember how and with a bit of arm twisting, gentoo lets me.


Ha-ha-ha...

1. So many critical equipments depend on Windows and it seems like every one is happy. i.e. no one cares.
2. Rust is only an instrument based on llvm. If you don't trust Rust you cannot use clang as well.
FreeBSD is built by clang. It doesn't look like people are afraid to use FreeBSD.
3. I would dream to have 100% static, but that seems to be impossible with glibc. Many articles about it are available on the web.
If that is really possible - I wish to read those instructions.
4. The fact is, that 99% of us are using dynamically linking distros.
5. The fact is, when I try to protect and explain that static build is the only way to go, people... disagree saying it politely.
6. Now why I am laughing. Rust as the only language provide the option to build statically linked binaries by default!

Are you sure, that you know enough about Rust and Cargo?
What are the reasons you can provide to support your idea?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alamahant wrote:
One ignorant question:
What exactly does rust do for firefox?
Does it make it better?
Because I think --as someone pointed out in this thread,that chrome does not rely on rust and nevertheless is much fmuch aster than firefox.........
What does rust have to offer to firefox ifor example n particular and everything else in general???
What does rust do for librsvg?
:D


Firefox is a big project under active development. One always wish to support new standards of Web and provide new functionality.
If I understand correctly FF is written in C++ besides Rust.

C++ is much more terrible language than C. Just read what Linus says about C++. It is not only him.
Many people hate C++, because of it its complexity and changing language standards.
A program written in pure C++ is hard to understand, to read and maintain.
One can always write the C++ program in C, but the real C++ is a nightmare.

At least ~50% of Applications for Linux are written in C++, but I can't see here on forum or anywhere else similar questions
in Regard to C++.

My position is that gcc bloated with C++. It could be much smaller, faster and developed further if had supported only C.


Now back to question - Why Rust? - Mozilla developed that language to make writing FF more easy task, than that with C++.
They understand C++ limitations and obviously didn't find other suited language and came up with their own.

The resulting program is not better, but safer. How good is the program depends on programmer. In any language one can
write a bad program. Rust offers better control for huge and complex projects. 10 lines code won't benefit from Rust.

I do write my small programs in C, still I see C limitations.

Actix web framework has been written in Rust. So far it the best one, the fastest one on the planet.

It's a democracy. Every one is using language he likes most.

I do have a bit problem to understand why people write programs in Python. To me it's the most terrible language
on the planet. I don't like any dynamically typed language, because it's a big issue for programmer, but Python
brought it to the limit.

What problems with Rust you do have personally? How it prevent you from having a happy life?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha,

Static /dev, not statically linked.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll add another philosophical musing here.

Are we moving from a situation when everything (from kernel to the most complex application) that can run on home-based commodity computers can be build on the them, to where in the future things will be compiled/build only professionally ? This is a matter of both hardware requirements, but also of need for specialized (and perhaps multiple) build environments.

We are almost at that level with web browsers nowadays.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
No systemd, udev, eudev, elogind .... Mate and Xfce4 are fairly happy.


Until recently I was using Mate without elogind, but few days or weeks it became impossible.
Consolekit is not supported anymore by Gentoo.

There is no straight way to avoid above listed programs without custom built and patched source code.

I believe 1 person can patch the code make it work, but one need too much time for that.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
I'll add another philosophical musing here.

Are we moving from a situation when everything (from kernel to the most complex application) that can run on home-based commodity computers can be build on the them, to where in the future things will be compiled/build only professionally ? This is a matter of both hardware requirements, but also of need for specialized (and perhaps multiple) build environments.

We are almost at that level with web browsers nowadays.


Absolutely! I won't laugh at some one saying building programs on local PC should be forbidden by law!
Look at conflict between US and Huawei. They cannot use Linux based Android distro anymore.
Who could imagine such thing will happen. Why not extend those restrictions a little further?

Previously binary based distros were just build from sources. Now with more and more dependencies
Linux is getting a huge step towards Windows.

An ordinary user is loosing a control under his own hardware. The same way like it happened with Android.

Linux kernel is written by 10+% by Intel and 10+% by IBM+RedHat.
That tendency will grow. After reaching 50+% companies will take control under Linux.

The we will get a fork into close-source form. A free version will stay without contributors.
And at some day Intel will deny running free version.

Anyone aware, that Networkmanager in Gentoo is permanently pinging one of Gentoo sites?
So much about source based distro. I turned that off, when I was using NM. How many people did the same?
How many aware its existence?

Linux is getting too complex. Only 5 people understand how it all works and they are working in agencies...
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
lefsha,

Static /dev, not statically linked.


OK. But every second program need udev.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blind_Sniper wrote:
Rust was made for housewives who cannot deal with c/c++.
And rust (with it's "no-need-to-care-of-memory-leaks" idea) had to become a lifeline for mozilla devs, but seems it did not meet expectations.
Firefox is still the same ugly and slow piece of bloatware with persistent memory leaks.


1. C++ is terrible.
2. FF is still written in C++. Just few modules are written in Rust.
3. FF is fast here. Did you use LTO?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
As a summary - your appeal is not justified and addressed to wrong people.

In your reply you apparently have not distinguished what I had written and what others have written (e.g. in many points you repeated what I replied to others), so your summary completely addresses the wrong person.

The only thing where I addressed someone directly is that I blamed the gentoo-developers for use.stable.masking system-bootstrap (and not making it the default). Not use-masking is rather a different thing than declaring stable, so your comments concerning this base on a misunderstanding.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not that simple, but unsurprisingly there's a bug for you: https://bugs.gentoo.org/689336
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
It is not that simple, but unsurprisingly there's a bug for you: https://bugs.gentoo.org/689336

Sounds very good!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
lefsha,

Static /dev, not statically linked.


I completely respect you Neddy. U one of the good ones.

but on the other hand... decades of work have been invested so that devices are plug and play. and you just ... negate all that work.

its your right. by all means. but could you imagine a world in which someone else might not be as much as a puritan as you are? someone that just wants bluetooth stuff. or whatever. the list of devices nowadays that just work... by themselves... is impressing.

What I can't reconcile with myself is why some people, and you, Neddy in particular, are so blind sometimes to their own thing. Like I know... Neddy would NEVER in a million years treat a new user disrespectfully. I know that.

But why ... why ohhh why would he say that to old users? or new users?

I get the systemd hate. Even I, a generally systemd oriented guy (although I always advocated to learn both), generally migrated out of systemd. especially for servers. machines which dont see a lot of device changes. but still, static /dev is one step TOO far. if I wanted UNIX i would have stayed in the 80's. not that anyone offered such option.

Fine... fight redhat on systemd. I get and respect that. But static dev? That's just ... ok. I have a usb stick with a qcow2 image, which is in fact a cryptsetup luks partition. can I forward that to a qemu machine? I know ... what you have to do with static dev to accomplish that. and it's just one step too far. and a pointless step in the first place. nobody cares you are a martyr man. we love you coz you're smart and you care about us as a community and about software. you don't need to die on no altar to prove a point. besides, your point is silly :)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's an unrealistic standard. I don't know how many people are like you ... IN THE WORLD.


like... just take a minute to consider that. out of 7-8 billion people, how much of an accident you really are. And is that hill worth dying for?


Do you really feel like static dev is like your life's work? Something you should actually fight for? OR is it just something YOU do. Suitable just for you. And perhaps, you should not tell other people how to run their /dev.

just a question. No need to get insulted.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl,

Gentoo is a toolkit that you use to build the distro that you design.
I design my main distro differently to you and many others :)
I'm good with that.

A few years ago it wan looking like the choice for the future was going to be systemd or BSD.
That choice has not been forced on me yet.
Now there is a third option too. That was what drove the experiment. Its fun too.

It wasn't my lifes work, just a day or two.

-- Edit --

I don't encourage people to use it as I do, its more a worked example to illustrate possibilities.

Consider the Blue LED. Blue LEDs were long held to be impossible but that did not prevent the inventor from making them.
Is silicon semiconductor, yes Blue LEDs are impossible. In silicon carbide, they mostly work.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
axl,

Gentoo is a toolkit that you use to build the distro that you design.
I design my main distro differently to you and many others :)
I'm good with that.

A few years ago it wan looking like the choice for the future was going to be systemd or BSD.
That choice has not been forced on me yet.
Now there is a third option too. That was what drove the experiment. Its fun too.


wow. so transparent. even though you on the inside.

gentoo is the sum of it's community. with good and bads. I hope gentoo doesn't dissolve itself.

why.... why are YOU so tied up with everyone else? Why do your choices have to be everyone else's? I don't get that.

let go and look at the bigger picture. which turns me back to bsd. u can't live with a mach kernel neddy. you might find it fun to fiddle with stuff for some time, but you can't live without linux kernel. I know it. You should know it too. and wtf is this? are you teenagery enough to threaten to leave the linux community? are you even you neddy?

I realize, in all fairness, the changes that did come over the linux community, didn't go well with you.

I don't know what to say. grandparents, which I'm assuming you are, should be very tolerant to changes and stuff.

Like this: "choices forced on people".

Time changes things. its... forced on people?

It's a known quality of the "people" that they don't like change. I am people. I don't like change either. But man... some people don't like change like: they start a rebellion.

I don't know. I really don't. The only thing I do know... is that "this" hill is not the one I want to die on. Like it's not just one hill. it's hill after hill. and everytime I think to myself... nope... not on this hill.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
axl,

Gentoo is a toolkit that you use to build the distro that you design.
I design my main distro differently to you and many others :)
I'm good with that.

A few years ago it wan looking like the choice for the future was going to be systemd or BSD.
That choice has not been forced on me yet.
Now there is a third option too. That was what drove the experiment. Its fun too.

It wasn't my lifes work, just a day or two.

-- Edit --

I don't encourage people to use it as I do, its more a worked example to illustrate possibilities.

Consider the Blue LED. Blue LEDs were long held to be impossible but that did not prevent the inventor from making them.
Is silicon semiconductor, yes Blue LEDs are impossible. In silicon carbide, they mostly work.


i can't...


look. I am not perfect. nor a genius. but I figured out, between a person overlay and gentoo... how to put my shit in order.

I wanted to say LFS. which is... well, I would take it as an insult. But as you say, we gots overlays.

It's hard for me to differentiate what is me, and my own limitations, and what is linux. Well actually, it's not hard. and linux is just way fucking better. And that's why I think that static /dev ides just hold everyone back.

Which is not to say, I do not agree with the idea that we kinda need an IT education. Like for every human. the levels of cybercrime are just scary. people without knowledge clicking on things they shouldn't click.

Like I said, it's hard. I hope we find a road in between static dev, and whatever the internet is now. I mean, that static dev ... does nothing. it's just some leftover memory. and memories we tend to romanticize. on the other hand, cant we dedicate resources to teach people to look at the link while hovering? it sounds easy when we talk about it... but look at the statistics.

and yes, these are the average users linux is pooling in. people who can't afford a license for microsoft and are as clueless as possible. these are the people who should learn "static dev"? but the way you go about it... do you think they will?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
-- Edit --

I don't encourage people to use it as I do, its more a worked example to illustrate possibilities.

Consider the Blue LED. Blue LEDs were long held to be impossible but that did not prevent the inventor from making them.
Is silicon semiconductor, yes Blue LEDs are impossible. In silicon carbide, they mostly work.


I didn't notice there was an edit. I don't know what to say about blue leds, but I will say this.

ls /sys/class/leds. in fact, there's a tone of stuff in there. courtesy of progress :P
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl,

Its only possible to teach those that want to learn.
The trick in teaching them it to teach how to learn, so that the methods can be applied anywhere.

Hence, pitch the help just ot of the users reach. Not to let them fall, just make them reach and in the process, learn how to learn.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
axl,

Its only possible to teach those that want to learn.
The trick in teaching them it to teach how to learn, so that the methods can be applied anywhere.

Hence, pitch the help just ot of the users reach. Not to let them fall, just make them reach and in the process, learn how to learn.


ok man. not for me to judge.

but I'm just curious since you brought up that leds things.

do you have a dynamic /proc and /sys? you do know that /sys is WAY more interesting than /dev. I mean... it has all the goodies.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
Anyone aware, that Networkmanager in Gentoo is permanently pinging one of Gentoo sites?

what is your evidence?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coderanger wrote:
lefsha wrote:
Anyone aware, that Networkmanager in Gentoo is permanently pinging one of Gentoo sites?

what is your evidence?


it has to ping something to know it itself is online. what would you have it ping?

EDIT: it stands to reason for gentoo to ping gentoo. also gentoo has to time sync to gentoo. if you think about it, ntp and rsync are the 2 services we all use.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl,

Yep, I have both /proc and /sys. They are kernel data structures exposed as filesystem.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
axl,

Yep, I have both /proc and /sys. They are kernel data structures exposed as filesystem.


and what is /dev?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Consider the Blue LED. Blue LEDs were long held to be impossible but that did not prevent the inventor from making them.
Is silicon semiconductor, yes Blue LEDs are impossible. In silicon carbide, they mostly work.


Wow. Do you have anything to do with LED business? - UK is quite known place for that technology.

Frankly speaking you are not really correct about what you are saying.

1. The first LED in the world was made in SiC in 1924.
2. SiC is indirect band gap semiconductor, therefore LED won't be efficient there. Band-band transition won't really work.
People use some doping for SiC-based LED.

3. All blue LED of 450nm wave length are made with GaN-based semiconductors.
4. To get required WL one need about 10% In for the quantum well.

5. Blue LEDs were not really impossible. It was just difficult to grow GaN of high quality and dope it with Mg.

6. Suiji Nakamura, who invented blue LEDs in 1996, mainly has solved above mentioned problems.

7. Si is also indirect band semiconductor. No LED are possible with it. Not without some tricks. Tricks are expensive.

P.S. May be let us focus on Linux? :oops:
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