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yayo
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:19 am    Post subject: New dev-lang/rust Dependencies / Is Rust a Good Thing? Reply with quote

It's disappointing.

1-2 years ago my whole system was something more than 800 packages installed, and now it's around 950. It's ok for virtual stuff, as well as for mini libraries, but rust is a big thing!
I'm still trying to understand what's going on with python, I still have some packages (1 or 2) that depends on v2.7, and moving all others from v3.6 to 3.7 lead to troubles, it seems that it's all chained (wxpython has single target v2.7, it locks pycairo to 3.6 and this does lock some others to 3.6 too), so that I now have 2.7, 3.6, 3.7 and 3.8... waiting for what?, 3.9 too?
And now do we really need to install hundreds of Mbs of rust for librsvg?

I'm not complaining, it's just that it's going to mean more compile time, more sub-deps, more possible code bugs that will leads to frequent updates and such. And i'm also wasting lot of time dealing with all this.

I could lock librsvg as it is now, avoiding the update, but I'll be just a temporary solution I suppose...
I could also remove librsvg, but there are 12 apps that depends on it.

So, (sigh!), how do I install rust-bin not as per my choice but as a librsvg dependancy? Do I need to install rust-bin 1st, than librsvg 2nd, and then remove rust-bin name manually from world file?

thanks in advance for your help.

This, and more than three (3) pages of the following posts were split off of [s] Why is the rust package being pulled in a world update?, which may give additional context to some of the posts herein.Chiitoo
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yayo wrote:
I'm still trying to understand what's going on with python, I still have some packages (1 or 2) that depends on v2.7, and moving all others from v3.6 to 3.7 lead to troubles, it seems that it's all chained (wxpython has single target v2.7, it locks pycairo to 3.6 and this does lock some others to 3.6 too)
There's almost nothing left in ::gentoo that's 3.6-only, last few packages will probably be ported or removed soon'ish. Make sure you don't have old exceptions in package.use that enable it for nothing, or stuff from outdated overlays.

Still a fair deal that need 2.7 on the other hand, but slowly being cleaned/ported to avoid those conflicts (upstream pycairo notably dropped support for 2.7, this happened with other packages as well which end up holding back upgrades if still needed). If didn't already may want to remove the target from global defaults ahead of time to avoid/reduce some of this nonsense (see news item for examples)

In case of wxpython the version in ~testing (slot 4.0) has python 3_{6,7,8} support. Although that won't help if you need it for some py2.7 package, may want to check if said package has a ~testing version that use the new one.

Quote:
So, (sigh!), how do I install rust-bin not as per my choice but as a librsvg dependancy? Do I need to install rust-bin 1st, than librsvg 2nd, and then remove rust-bin name manually from world file?
That's what --oneshot (-1) option is for, `emerge -1 rust-bin` then won't be added in world file and only stay around for as long as it's needed by something. If wanted the choice to be automatic you could always mask dev-lang/rust too, something depending on virtual/rust will then pull rust-bin as the only possible choice.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh! right! I totally forgot --oneshot option... I use it so unfrequently that I'm not even sure what's usually requested for... (portage update itself maybe?)

Right now while updating the system without librsvg I got a warning "you're building xxx against an older librsvg, which will result in various broken links <blahblah> children crying <blahblah> timespace paradoxes <blahblah>..."
Well, it seems that I MUST install rust too... ¬_¬
meh... v_v

Glad to have bin version, 'cause I remember the full package to be something around 500mb uncompressed!, which for a single library really is a lot of stuff...

About the -python2_7 I already have that general setup on my package.use, but it still requires some per-package +python2_7 to work, as I said, maybe just for that wxpython which has the 2.7 choice only on the stable release (waiting for the new testing version to be stabilized since some weeks now), which pulls older pycairo with 3_6 and then a subset of others 3_6 libraries... duh!
I tried step by step along with system updates to move single packages to 3_7 and 3_8, but this does require a lot of per-package settings, and package.use file is going to be a mess... I would like to completely remove 2_7 and 3_6, and clean up the system a bit...

anyway, thanks for the quick reply! : )
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This royally sucks. I haven't run into this yet as gnome-base/librsvg-2.48.8 wasn't stable the last time I updated. I just looked at the ebuild to verify that the rust dependency wasn't based on any use flag...so I see there's no getting around this apparently(?). I also see that there's no avoiding gnome-base/librsvg as long as I have gtk2 (so far at least I've avoided gtk3).

So far I'd avoided that bloated piece of shit along with things like clang and llvm. I'm glad at least that there's a bin version. In recent years most of the time I spend updating my systems consists of trying to avoid bloat being forced on my from every direction, and the ass hats as freedesktop.org seem to be a big part of that. This just sucks.

Tom
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spent about an hour this morning trying to remove the rust dependency with no luck. The worst part is that even after I removed the one gtk+3 program, my system is claiming that gtk+3 is a dependency of gtk+2 (through adwaita, which I already INSTALL_MASK due to it being malware). Why do the upstream software devs think it's acceptable to require a half-gigabyte compiler that can't be built in my /var/tmp/portage tmpfs just to draw a couple icons that I'm going to delete anyway?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SiberianSniper wrote:
I spent about an hour this morning trying to remove the rust dependency with no luck. The worst part is that even after I removed the one gtk+3 program, my system is claiming that gtk+3 is a dependency of gtk+2 (through adwaita, which I already INSTALL_MASK due to it being malware). Why do the upstream software devs think it's acceptable to require a half-gigabyte compiler that can't be built in my /var/tmp/portage tmpfs just to draw a couple icons that I'm going to delete anyway?
I vaguely recall having that dopey gtk+3 requirement for gtk2 around adwaita. I see I got around it by adding this:
Code:
cat /etc/portage/profile/package.provided
x11-themes/adwaita-icon-theme-3.22.0-r2
EDIT: This all makes me realize just how much time I've put into avoiding bullshit forced on my by the idiots at freedesktop.org (who seem very close to the systemd idiots). They've just never met any bloat and/or over-engineering that they didn't love. And yes...this much bullshit around one f****** graphics library is beyond unimaginable.

Tom
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SiberianSniper wrote:
Why do the upstream software devs think it's acceptable to require a half-gigabyte compiler that can't be built in my /var/tmp/portage tmpfs just to draw a couple icons that I'm going to delete anyway?

"Progress" ... or rather the assumption that people aren't rebuilding their systems every update and only using binary packages.

In any case I've found that rust and gcc are about the same in terms of compile times. I still hate rust because it can't be built by old compilers. Not even old rust compilers, where gcc you still have a good shot with a version a few versions old (in the old days, you can build gcc with a non-gcc compiler too!). That's what really bugs me. (Yes I'm a firefox user so I eat rust...)
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what't the solution?
Neither "-gtk -gtk2 -gtk3" in make.conf nor
Code:
echo "x11-themes/adwaita-icon-theme-3.22.0-r2" >>  /etc/portage/profile/package.provided

helps.
emerge still trying to build 325 Mb of rust...
Am I supposed to abandon gentoo? I will not allow rust or rust-bin on my machine. I have no that 9 Gb of tmpfs and have no extra hdd space/partition, which emerge requieres to build rust.
Any solution?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
SiberianSniper wrote:
I spent about an hour this morning trying to remove the rust dependency with no luck. The worst part is that even after I removed the one gtk+3 program, my system is claiming that gtk+3 is a dependency of gtk+2 (through adwaita, which I already INSTALL_MASK due to it being malware). Why do the upstream software devs think it's acceptable to require a half-gigabyte compiler that can't be built in my /var/tmp/portage tmpfs just to draw a couple icons that I'm going to delete anyway?
I vaguely recall having that dopey gtk+3 requirement for gtk2 around adwaita. I see I got around it by adding this:
Code:
cat /etc/portage/profile/package.provided
x11-themes/adwaita-icon-theme-3.22.0-r2
EDIT: This all makes me realize just how much time I've put into avoiding bullshit forced on my by the idiots at freedesktop.org (who seem very close to the systemd idiots). They've just never met any bloat and/or over-engineering that they didn't love. And yes...this much bullshit around one f****** graphics library is beyond unimaginable.

Tom


I appreciate the info, but it appears my system is too far gone. I missed it before, but even fluxbox depends on gxmessage, which depends on gtk+3. Guess I'll install rust-bin, but I'm quite bitter about this change. Is it time for Gentoo as a community to fork gtk+(or at least librsvg) like we did udev?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SiberianSniper wrote:
I appreciate the info, but it appears my system is too far gone. I missed it before, but even fluxbox depends on gxmessage, which depends on gtk+3. Guess I'll install rust-bin, but I'm quite bitter about this change. Is it time for Gentoo as a community to fork gtk+(or at least librsvg) like we did udev?
I'm running the current stable fluxbox without it. It appears that it can use either x11-misc/gxmessage or x11-apps/xmessage and I have the latter:
Code:
   xinerama? ( x11-libs/libXinerama )
   || ( x11-misc/gxmessage x11-apps/xmessage )
I'd imagine that you could do and emerge -1 of x11-apps/xmessage and fluxbox would no longer require gxmessage.

Tom
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
This royally sucks. I haven't run into this yet as gnome-base/librsvg-2.48.8 wasn't stable the last time I updated. I just looked at the ebuild to verify that the rust dependency wasn't based on any use flag...so I see there's no getting around this apparently(?)
Of course not, it's written in rust. A USE flag can't change the language it's written in.

From NEWS:
Code:
Version 2.46.0

- All of librsvg.so is now implemented in Rust!  That is, except for a
  very thin wrapper over the public API functions.  Hopefully we can
  remove this wrapper when Cargo gets some more features around
  controlling the linking step.  This release requires at least Rust 1.34.
This started with 2.41 and was mostly completed by 2.46.

And then compatibility with the 2.40.x branch is starting to cause problems, thus this adwaita-icon-theme warning for one. Gentoo did wait a while to do this switch + stabilize, but it'd make keeping things updated hard if didn't go forward with this eventually. Upstream also said 2.40.20 would be the last release of this branch except for emergencies (.21 happened because of security issues).

More and more packages are using rust too, even non-gui-related stuff, so avoiding it forever on a distribution where you build things will be hard regardless of if like it or not. Thankfully rust-bin exists.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least by masking dev-lang/rust the dependency pulls in rust-bin instead. rust was taking hours to install on my 12 year old x86 machine. I finally killed the job, masked rust, purged almost 6 GB of temporary files from /var/tmp/portage/dev-lang and started emerge update again.

This could have benefited form a NEWS item outlining the new dependency and alternatives. I doubt many users really feel compelled to build their own rust. No doubt, I should have researched it better before letting rip on the update.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

don't we have a page/info about long and RAM consuming packages? I think there would be a good place to gather those packages and link them in a news item if a new one is added.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blind_Sniper wrote:

Am I supposed to abandon gentoo? I will not allow rust or rust-bin on my machine. I have no that 9 Gb of tmpfs and have no extra hdd space/partition, which emerge requieres to build rust.
Any solution?

Abandoning Gentoo or any source based distro might be your only choice. Rust is gaining in popularity and so more packages will be built with it.
This is not a problem as long as you install binary packages only, but you don't do that on Gentoo.

The problem with rust, at the moment, is that it is changing so fast so you need to compile it a whole lot more often than GCC. And yes, that sucks. Although I personally hate qtwebkit and gtkwebkit a lot more.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clad in Sky wrote:
The problem with rust, at the moment, is that it is changing so fast so you need to compile it a whole lot more often than GCC.
Or don't and get the binary package from dev-lang/rust-bin and never compile it. Not like having your own custom compiled compiler will mean much after it's done compiling other things, binary rust is good enough for most (and you'd have to use it to compile itself anyway). Edit: Compiling GCC at least makes more sense given all the options, patches, and how much it gets used.

Last edited by Ionen on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
Clad in Sky wrote:
The problem with rust, at the moment, is that it is changing so fast so you need to compile it a whole lot more often than GCC.
Or don't and get the binary package from dev-lang/rust-bin and never compile it. Not like having your own custom compiled compiler will mean much after it's done compiling other things, binary rust is good enough for most (and you'd have to use it to compile itself anyway).

Sure, there's that.
But Blind_Sniper, whom I quoted, also does not want to have rust-bin. So it's not a real option.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clad in Sky wrote:
But Blind_Sniper, whom I quoted, also does not want to have rust-bin. So it's not a real option.
Given entire post been talking of building it / 9GB / etc.. that rust-bin was included was kinda off-sounding and seen it as a misunderstanding, but if do want to avoid the language entirely, good luck with that I guess.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
tld wrote:
This royally sucks. I haven't run into this yet as gnome-base/librsvg-2.48.8 wasn't stable the last time I updated. I just looked at the ebuild to verify that the rust dependency wasn't based on any use flag...so I see there's no getting around this apparently(?)
Of course not, it's written in rust. A USE flag can't change the language it's written in.
Yes of course...I hadn't seen the news item and and having seen odd stuff like ruby being required for one step of QtWebkit I wasn't sure.
Ionen wrote:
And then compatibility with the 2.40.x branch is starting to cause problems, thus this adwaita-icon-theme warning for one. Gentoo did wait a while to do this switch + stabilize, but it'd make keeping things updated hard if didn't go forward with this eventually. Upstream also said 2.40.20 would be the last release of this branch except for emergencies (.21 happened because of security issues).
If you're like me and use only gtk2 that theme isn't needed and, as noted above, I just have it in my package.provided. I suspect that with gtk2 only continuing to use librsvg-2.40 will likely be less of an issue. At least for now that's what I'll be doing...possibly copying it to my overlay.

Tom
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dalu wrote:

Rust is such a fugly, overly complicated language... and the community, if you can call it that, seems to suffer from some kind of inferiority or god complex, the actix drama is just a prominent example. When you ask for help with your code snippet you get downvoted -20. edgy kids imo.


Well. Rust is making first steps into kernel. Therefore it will be unavoidable if source based distro is your choice.

I worry much about about that shitty Python, which alone (many of them) make a lot of troubles. That language has to be forgotten or banned. It's the most terrible language on the planet.
I am not only need to care about 2_7 vs 3_X game, but also 3_6 vs 3_7 and so on. Any one who made such a design is fully incompetent. Not related to Gentoo developers.
They just making workarounds. Frankly I don't remember any sane language with Lang2_7 Lang 3_6 use flags. None! Anyone who has it like Ruby is another shitty language.

Rust is free of that troubles. Seems like developed by more sane people.

The real problem people met is way too frequent software update. That is fully in hands of Gentoo developers. No one is asking to upgrade any piece of software every week or day.

If new version of packages will be introduced once in 6-12 months it will make life easier for everyone including users.
Just imagine if some package updated weekly there is a big chance a user won't be able to launch it even once! What the point of software being downloaded
unpacked and compiled if not running a single time.

To me I have to start a program at least 100 times to justify it existence. Some I run in best case once a week, others once a months.
I need them - yes, but not 24h a day.

What the point to bring an upgrade weekly then? - A year has 50 weeks roughly. I need 1-2y to execute the program more times,
than I need to compile it if I count CPU times of each call. It simply makes no sense.

A simple and easy executing suggestion - make updates less frequently! Spend more times for debugging or adding other not available packages.

Then Rust installation won't be a problem at all.

P.S. Rust is still at 2018 edition... They ask you only to use something newer than that. 2 years time span is fully OK according my thoughts above.

P.P.S. Do not blame Rust developers! They are more sane than many others. Far better, than shitty Python.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:


P.P.S. Do not blame Rust developers! They are more sane than many others. Far better, than shitty Python.


I would agree if pulling rust into the system would drop others. It would be sane if we had one lang for compiling, one for interpreting and one for scripting, but seems we have to have all of the sorts of lang simultaniously. Every new "cool" lang should be pulled in because some dev was impressed with it..

It was not so long ago when building entire the KDE desktop from scratch took less then 2 hours. Now we compiling all the sort of compilers for hours and hours and hours...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lefsha, I think you are discounting that Gentoo follows upstream, not its own cyclic release patterns. If you want to update every 6 months or just once a year, do so, but you are asking for trouble, beacause upstream pushes the rate of flow and you'll then have massive update list with dependency hell.

So, mostly I update my primary two machines every day, in small coherent (usually) bites, as routine as brushing my teeth. But, the rust dependency was not routine, and made me think.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
If you're like me and use only gtk2 that theme isn't needed and, as noted above, I just have it in my package.provided. I suspect that with gtk2 only continuing to use librsvg-2.40 will likely be less of an issue. At least for now that's what I'll be doing...possibly copying it to my overlay.
Apparently it still has known unsolved security issues or at least so I've heard the maintainer claim (also mentioned in these notes), not that it's something I looked into so don't take my word for it, just saying in case concerned and going to keep using this for a long time.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
Rust is free of that troubles. Seems like developed by more sane people.
Given the basic problems building Rust at all, I can't agree that it's developed by more responsible people.
lefsha wrote:
The real problem people met is way too frequent software update. That is fully in hands of Gentoo developers. No one is asking to upgrade any piece of software every week or day.
No, that is in the hands of the upstream developers. Gentoo releases what upstream posts. If upstream is pushing out new releases every few weeks, and every new release is an effectively mandatory upgrade because of the amount of churn and new features, then the Gentoo maintainers have a choice between pushing updates to users or freezing the language - which is exactly what this thread said cannot be done for librsvg, and that's just one minor package, not the language itself. If the Gentoo maintainers freeze releases of rustc, how long will it be before they should just remove it from the tree because it will not work on any currently released code?
lefsha wrote:
P.S. Rust is still at 2018 edition... They ask you only to use something newer than that. 2 years time span is fully OK according my thoughts above.
So I can use a rustc from 2 years ago to build a current rustc, and do it on a system that was not cutting edge when Rust 2018 was released? Per what I have read elsewhere, I don't expect such an old rustc would work. Per this thread, rustc is such a resource hog that building it on a system that is 5+ years old will be rather painful.
lefsha wrote:
P.P.S. Do not blame Rust developers! They are more sane than many others. Far better, than shitty Python.
Can you cite an example of the Python developers behaving as irresponsibly as the Rust developers do? Python 3.x was widely known to be a breaking release, and upstream added 5 years to the life of Python 2.7 to allow people more time to migrate.

Rust had the option of being far more packager friendly, and they chose not to take it. Instead, they actively advocate curlpipesh as their preferred download path.

I'm still sad that their package manager doesn't have a cult subcommand though.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
Python 3.x was widely known to be a breaking release, and upstream added 5 years to the life of Python 2.7 to allow people more time to migrate.
At least they provided that 2to3 tool. But I still hate it fr having incompatible 3.x versions. And I fault Gentoo devs for dropping useful packages solely because they require 2.7 to build and no one is available to migrate from a perfectly good 2.7. I trust 2.7 which was developed over a long cycle over these 3.x versions spitting out on a short cycle. This is not engineering. It's Microshit tinkering.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
At least by masking dev-lang/rust the dependency pulls in rust-bin instead. rust was taking hours to install on my 12 year old x86 machine. I finally killed the job, masked rust, purged almost 6 GB of temporary files from /var/tmp/portage/dev-lang and started emerge update again.

This could have benefited form a NEWS item outlining the new dependency and alternatives. I doubt many users really feel compelled to build their own rust. No doubt, I should have researched it better before letting rip on the update.


Exactly same scenerio here. Ctrl + c after 2 hours of build time. Compiling rust for only one package (librsvg) doesnt have any sense for my 2009 machine. qtwebengine its enough struggle for me. :oops:

Code:
# echo "dev-lang/rust" >> /etc/package.mask/leadsacks

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