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Which one should be the default?
sys-fs/eudev
90%
 90%  [ 45 ]
sys-fs/udev
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
Other/Don't Care
4%
 4%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 50

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Chiitoo
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:37 pm    Post subject: Default 'sys-fs/eudev' for New Installs Reply with quote

A suggestion has emerged on the gentoo-dev mailing list [1], where the default would be changed from 'eudev' to 'udev'.

What do you think?

I don't expect this poll to change any minds, but I'm curious enough to start a poll about it. :]

1. https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/8dbfbc64bcc6a8ac67b832dab1eaf5a2
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note that there are two ways to install udev, systemd proper or the separate ebuild sys-fs/udev (which blocks systemd since it conflicts), meaning would of course not start running systemd by using udev. eudev is similar (forked from systemd), save for a few differences notably for non-glibc support.

And then eudev hasn't seen much development and last release was a year ago.

Personally I don't really care which until something starts failing because it wants something from more recent udev, if eudev gets updated then it's all good.. otherwise may have a problem.
Edit: the argument that using udev without systemd "may" become impossible someday is of course a concern too, I feel both cases are looking at "potential" future issues (eudev being dead/incompatible, or udev requiring systemd), without anything being a problem right now. So the question is which is less likely to be a problem and affect new users in the future?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't care because

a) its just a default
b) I don't use any of them.

However, when Red Hat make good on their assertion that they intend to make it impossible to use udev without the rest of systemd, I would hate for most users to not have an escape route, so I don't want to see eudev bitrot.
A static /dev is not an escape route for most users.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't care because

c) I switched to Systemd

I don't like Systemd very much, but I switched since all major distributions switched to Systemd. And I want to use the tools my colleagues and my customers use.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eudev of course.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't particularly object to sys-fs/udev in its current form, but this looks like a change for the sake of it, and that does piss me off. I think I agree with slashbeast's summary.

Also, the fact that eudev apparently works with musl, and systemd-udevd likely not, given that systemd developers have admitted several times that they don't care about portability, is a plus.


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Ionen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GDH-gentoo wrote:
I don't particularly object to sys-fs/udev in its current form, but this looks like a change for the sake of it
Yeah have to agree with that, eventual issues are pure speculation at this point and could end up going back & forth for no real reason.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm extremely tired of this condescending corporate mouthpiece running roughshod over the community and I'm going to be blunt.

I think the faceless entity that demanded the creation of the metadata/AUTHORS file solely for itself should either get its employees to start doing the amount of *real, hard work* that one would expect from someone asking every few weeks for sweeping architectural changes, sitting on multiple governing bodies, and claiming sole ownership of half of @system, or they should take a bloody hike and take the middle managers nobody asked for with them. Because I've never seen this guy do a fraction of what other devs get done for free.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So eudev--and OpenRC!

One thing that always struck me about eudev: the Greek prefix ευ means "good". So eudev is the good dev.

Gatsby wrote:
Γνωθι σεαυτον.

That took me a little bit. Γνωθι--could that be the imperative of γιγνωσκω ("I know")? Oh look--σεαυτον has the pronoun σε, and, yes, the accusative of αυτος ("self"). So that's it: know yourself.

I can think of another aphorism for the current occasion. I'm not as fast at Greek as I am with Latin, but here's my Greek version:

Γνωθι ανταγωνιστή

Know your antagonist.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sys-fs/eudev because
williamh wrote:
...AS I said the original change was not because of the
lack of suitability, but because of fear of what the udev devs might do.
That fear never came true.
NeddySeagoon wrote:
Never is a very long time.
That promise has not been made good ... yet.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had considered an 'Other/Don't Care' option earlier, but for some reason decided not to add it.

I've added it now so everyone who wants to vote gets something. :]
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:
Γνωθι ανταγωνιστή

Know your antagonist.

Yes, indeed. :D
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Default 'sys-fs/eudev' for New Installs Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
A suggestion has emerged on the gentoo-dev mailing list [1], where the default would be changed from 'eudev' to 'udev'.

What do you think?

I don't expect this poll to change any minds, but I'm curious enough to start a poll about it. :]

1. https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/8dbfbc64bcc6a8ac67b832dab1eaf5a2

It is no surprise that this proposal comes from our friend williamh. :evil: :twisted: :evil:
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

williamh wrote:
...AS I said the original change was not because of the
lack of suitability, but because of fear of what the udev devs might do.
That fear never came true.


Is he really that f'ing ignorant or simply pretending to be.

The reason systemd/udev hasn't changed IS BECAUSE of eudev, without that, they'd shut everyone out in a heartbeat. LP had already threatened gentoo once, how convenient that he seems to have forgotten that, or perhaps he's relying on others forgetting this.

I don't understand why some of the devs ie Hubbs, gormy, etc are trying to destroy the gentoo distro all in favor of making a redhat clone.
I can grab the source from redhat w/their patches, what the hell do I need to use gentoo, if it's simply going to mirror RH???
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
The reason systemd/udev hasn't changed IS BECAUSE of eudev, without that, they'd shut everyone out in a heartbeat.

But that's really a myth. And even if you believe that, then its existence is enough, not because it is default in some niche distro.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
The reason systemd/udev hasn't changed IS BECAUSE of eudev, without that, they'd shut everyone out in a heartbeat.

But that's really a myth. And even if you believe that, then its existence is enough, not because it is default in some niche distro.


LP's threats were not a myth and he backed off when eudev was brought out, not just because of gentoo :roll: As for the rest of your strawman arguments, *whatever*
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah right. Because he totally looks at what Gentoo is doing for his decisions.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Yeah right. Because he totally looks at what Gentoo is doing for his decisions.


He's the one that mentioned gentoo out of the blue, out of all the distros, so your imperial dismissal seems rather foolish.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because blog posts matter! No really. It is a heartwarming story about the small eudev that tamed the monster, but it is only a story. And because of that you can cry strawman all day long, but that's only a cheap cop-out.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Because blog posts matter! No really. It is a heartwarming story about the small eudev that tamed the monster, but it is only a story. And because of that you can cry strawman all day long, but that's only a cheap cop-out.


s\blog\release email\


It's real, it's logged, it was targeting Gentoo which is unprofessional and something was needed to be done
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, the reason that the threat did not materialize was the failure of kdbus. And yes, that was in an e-mail to the systemd development mailing list, not some blog post.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GDH-gentoo wrote:
To be fair, the reason that the threat did not materialize was the failure of kdbus. And yes, that was in an e-mail to the systemd development mailing list, not some blog post.


Exactly. If you read the release email (that became more of a political platform) they were doubling down on kdbus and also lock step kernel...

Kdbus fizzled out but the wish still exists since it moved onto bus1 so once that matures there again will be another IPC in the kernel to be leveraged by systemd and thus tie dbus to this. HENCE the threat is still there

This is why eudev was span up, this was the TECHNICAL reason it was set as default. We now have a political reason to switch it back when udev is actually inferior (musl etc) ... Screams of the last politixal switch (ffmpeg and Libau)

If the only concern with eudev is a single Dev then why not add more support, it's a Gentoo project ffs. Likewise it isn't the only project that has a single Dev YET there is no drive to change (elogind anyone)

This stinks of lazyness and stupid politics with zero technical merit. Why is bandwidth being wasted to even entertainer this
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
It's real, it's logged, it was targeting Gentoo which is unprofessional

Sure, fully agree, that action did speak for itself. But it shouldn't have triggered the knee-jerk reaction to make eudev the default back then.

Likewise though, switching back to udev should be based on technical reasons and not feelings. I know for a fact that we had trouble with eudev in the past that was caused by a long delay for a new release, but as I'm not invested in that matter I did not keep a 'file' on it.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using eudev since early 2015 at least, so I voted to keep it the default.

EDIT: Not that it's important, but I have just checked and, in fact, I've been using eudev since November 2014.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Likewise though, switching back to udev should be based on technical reasons and not feelings. I know for a fact that we had trouble with eudev in the past that was caused by a long delay for a new release, but as I'm not invested in that matter I did not keep a 'file' on it.


I totally agree. Not maintaining eudev in favour of using upstream udev will make life a lot easier for the Gentoo package maintainers... I mean better for users. After all, we have such a rich history of of reliable udev operation that gave no reason to switch to eudev.
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