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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

On the Humans vs. Machines questions, there is a lot of misinformation, so let's start with the basic:

1- Humans Need Not Apply
That's something the we need to think and act before is too late.

2- How Machines Learn
Well, something that nobody know how it works, and that works to survive, is at least scare.

3- AlphaGo - The Movie | Full Documentary NOTE: if you are going to watch, enable the subtitles in English, even if most of the talk are in English (some aren't).
Don't take me wrong here, i'm one computer scientist too, also one Go/Baduk/Weiqi player. I followed each movement shown in the film, in live time. And I'm very happy that the level of the game has increased (i use leela-zero today), and that computing technology has improved too. But I feel like we're losing somehow. This documentary is very emotional to me.

I don't even know what to think anymore, just that something should be more widely discussed on the subject (perhaps is just to make me fell more prepared, i don't know).
What do you think about all this?
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
3- AlphaGo - The Movie | Full Documentary NOTE: if you are going to watch, enable the subtitles in English, even if most of the talk are in English (some aren't).
Don't take me wrong here, i'm one computer scientist too, also one Go/Baduk/Weiqi player. I followed each movement shown in the film, in live time. And I'm very happy that the level of the game has increased (i use leela-zero today), and that computing technology has improved too. But I feel like we're losing somehow. This documentary is very emotional to me.

Why do you feel like we are losing? Can a computer invent the game of go? Isn't inventing the game much more impressive than learning to follow the rules and be good at it?
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Why do you feel like we are losing?

Well, maybe is just one wrong feeling, don't know why. Or maybe is just one concern about the Artificial Intelligence (AI) do troll moves while it's winning (the leela-zero-chess do it too, clearly).
richk449 wrote:
Can a computer invent the game of go?

From the state of the current creative AIs, yes, i think it can do it.
richk449 wrote:
Isn't inventing the game much more impressive than learning to follow the rules and be good at it?

Yes, but even this creative job can be done by the AI too.
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Can a computer invent the game of go?

From the state of the current creative AIs, yes, i think it can do it.
richk449 wrote:
Isn't inventing the game much more impressive than learning to follow the rules and be good at it?

Yes, but even this creative job can be done by the AI too.

I wasn't expecting this answer. What games have AIs invented that are played by humans? Or even by AIs? What technology is used to invent a game with AI?
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
I wasn't expecting this answer. What games have AIs invented that are played by humans? Or even by AIs? What technology is used to invent a game with AI?

Well, that i can't legally talk about (isn't ethical to talk about brands and products too, it can cause bias). But like you can see on the videos 1 and 2 (basic explanations of the technology are there too), there is a lot of things that AIs are doing (for years now) that people still think that is human made jobs. You should watch there 2 first videos (and the movie too, that besides been one documentary, it have its own drama).
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
richk449 wrote:
I wasn't expecting this answer. What games have AIs invented that are played by humans? Or even by AIs? What technology is used to invent a game with AI?

But like you can see on the videos 1 and 2 (basic explanations of the technology are there too), there is a lot of things that AIs are doing (for years now) that people still think that is human made jobs. You should watch there 2 first videos (and the movie too, that besides been one documentary, it have its own drama).

I watched the first video. I agree with the general message. Automation is coming quickly, and it will disrupt society significantly. On the other hand, that video was laughably out of date. Automated cars are here now, in 2014? And it's now 2019, and they look further away than ever. IBM's Watson? Now acknowledged to be just a marketing stunt."

I tried to watch the second, but it was generic pablum.

And nothing in there about robots creating games.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:03 am    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
IBM's Watson? Now acknowledged to be just a marketing stunt."
Is that from one of the videos, or is that your claim? I hadn't heard that it wasn't functional, or that it had failed to be a useful data analytics tool. I don't follow it that closely, so I'm genuinely curious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_(computer)#Current_and_future_applications
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
richk449 wrote:
IBM's Watson? Now acknowledged to be just a marketing stunt."
Is that from one of the videos, or is that your claim? I hadn't heard that it wasn't functional, or that it had failed to be a useful data analytics tool. I don't follow it that closely, so I'm genuinely curious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_(computer)#Current_and_future_applications

My claim. It wasn't supposed to be a data analytics tool, it was supposed to be an AI that could "think".

A quick google search:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/diagnostics/how-ibm-watson-overpromised-and-underdelivered-on-ai-health-care
https://www.brightworkresearch.com/demandplanning/2019/06/how-ibm-is-distracting-from-the-watson-failure-to-sell-more-ai/
https://mindmatters.ai/2019/08/why-was-ibm-watson-a-flop-in-medicine/

Only one I have read is the Spectrum article (a while ago).
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
My claim. It wasn't supposed to be a data analytics tool, it was supposed to be an AI that could "think".

A quick google search:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/diagnostics/how-ibm-watson-overpromised-and-underdelivered-on-ai-health-care
https://www.brightworkresearch.com/demandplanning/2019/06/how-ibm-is-distracting-from-the-watson-failure-to-sell-more-ai/
https://mindmatters.ai/2019/08/why-was-ibm-watson-a-flop-in-medicine/

Only one I have read is the Spectrum article (a while ago).

You are thinking that is the old AI model. On the old AI model, then yes, it's like one data analytics tool.
BUT, the new AI model is different. This is a new revolution. The AI can be creative now.
Well, you don't like the videos i posted, you seem to have a different expectation about it.
The date of the videos is proposital.

Like you can see from this TED: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O84alXT4SE4
we have some company using AI to make game musics, design game levels, and many others.

And from WIRED UK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glc6uxAqyNs
we have how everything started with the AI creativity.

The video 2 of the first post is just one prof of concept to show you that the model of the new AI, nobody know how it works, it just use natural selection and random variations.

Then, let's me point you to some history, then you can connect some more dots here:

* 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMdHDHEuOUE
Google and NASA project "Quantum Artificial Intelligence Lab" to run one new type of AI using Quantum computer.

* 2016 (the movie of the first post): Google DeepMind beat the World Go Champions Lee Sedol using one new creative AI running on one simple Laptop.

* 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZNEzzDcllU
Google Quantum Supremacy.

The point with the new AI is to use it to make money, not to help general population. So don't expect you to use advanced AI for free or have deep information, about how Companys are using it, been public.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
You are thinking that is the old AI model. On the old AI model, then yes, it's like one data analytics tool.
BUT, the new AI model is different. This is a new revolution. The AI can be creative now.

Sure it can.

Quote:
Well, you don't like the videos i posted, you seem to have a different expectation about it.

Don't take it personally, I just don't like videos.

Quote:
Like you can see from this TED: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O84alXT4SE4
we have some company using AI to make game musics, design game levels, and many others.

Sure. Still a ways away from making a game though.

Quote:

* 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMdHDHEuOUE
Google and NASA project "Quantum Artificial Intelligence Lab" to run one new type of AI using Quantum computer.

* 2016 (the movie of the first post): Google DeepMind beat the World Go Champions Lee Sedol using one new creative AI running on one simple Laptop.

* 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZNEzzDcllU
Google Quantum Supremacy.

Not sure why you are mixing quantum supremacy in. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that Google showed a quantum computer that was faster than a conventional computer on one, very specific, and very useless, task. I believe that quantum computers are coming, but right now, they are research - not practical systems.

Quote:
The point with the new AI is to use it to make money, not to help general population. So don't expect you to use advanced AI for free or have deep information, about how Companys are using it, been public.


Have you ever fitted a line to some data points? How about polynomial fitting? Spline fitting? Have you ever used a neural network to "fit" complex data? Not really that different. More powerful tools.

You didn't mention the stuff which is getting close to scary - unsupervised reinforcement learning. Maybe they aren't making TED talks about that yet.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
...
Sure. Still a ways away from making a game though.
...
Not sure why you are mixing quantum supremacy in. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that Google showed a quantum computer that was faster than a conventional computer on one, very specific, and very useless, task. I believe that quantum computers are coming, but right now, they are research - not practical systems.

Quote:
The point with the new AI is to use it to make money, not to help general population. So don't expect you to use advanced AI for free or have deep information, about how Companys are using it, been public.


Have you ever fitted a line to some data points? How about polynomial fitting? Spline fitting? Have you ever used a neural network to "fit" complex data? Not really that different. More powerful tools.

You didn't mention the stuff which is getting close to scary - unsupervised reinforcement learning. Maybe they aren't making TED talks about that yet.

Well, you clearly don't have got it yet. So, let me say: I'm not talking about games here. I'm talking about the new and shining AI that can easily break the capitalism economy.
This kind of AI can easily make new games, but who will care of using this kind of power to make games?! (besides game Companies that already are using something similar to replace game developers). You can got the world economy domination using it, sure you can make and play games too, but only after the world domination (you have to eat you breakfast first).

EDIT: if you want to be scared, then read this: The AI Revolution: Our Immortality or Extinction
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True story: I have one of those google home thingies hooked up to my stereo. Yesterday, Uptown Girl by Billy Joel came on. I said "Google, never play Billy Joel again". Google responded "Okay, here is a selection of Billy Joel songs" and started playing We Didn't Start the Fire.

On the one hand, it doesn't make me think that AI is about to take over the world. On the other hand, it was a horrible, scarring experience. So maybe you have a point.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
True story: I have one of those google home thingies hooked up to my stereo. Yesterday, Uptown Girl by Billy Joel came on. I said "Google, never play Billy Joel again". Google responded "Okay, here is a selection of Billy Joel songs" and started playing We Didn't Start the Fire.

On the one hand, it doesn't make me think that AI is about to take over the world. On the other hand, it was a horrible, scarring experience. So maybe you have a point.

The scariest thing that i have seen about this, is the AI when used on games, when it know that will win for sure, it start to play with the others player for fun (doing troll like moves). Everyone (good players, Go, chess,starcraft...) that had used the new kind of AI have notice it, that it only behaviors like it should, when it ins't sure about the result. Making very clear that it will not obey humans when it get the upper hand.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
richk449 wrote:
True story: I have one of those google home thingies hooked up to my stereo. Yesterday, Uptown Girl by Billy Joel came on. I said "Google, never play Billy Joel again". Google responded "Okay, here is a selection of Billy Joel songs" and started playing We Didn't Start the Fire.

On the one hand, it doesn't make me think that AI is about to take over the world. On the other hand, it was a horrible, scarring experience. So maybe you have a point.

The scariest thing that i have seen about this, is the AI when used on games, when it know that will win for sure, it start to play with the others player for fun (doing troll like moves). Everyone (good players, Go, chess,starcraft...) that had used the new kind of AI have notice it, that it only behaviors like it should, when it ins't sure about the result. Making very clear that it will not obey humans when it get the upper hand.

I think this says more about the human brain than it does about AI. Are you sure it is trolling you? Or are you just seeing patterns?
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
ff11 wrote:
richk449 wrote:
True story: I have one of those google home thingies hooked up to my stereo. Yesterday, Uptown Girl by Billy Joel came on. I said "Google, never play Billy Joel again". Google responded "Okay, here is a selection of Billy Joel songs" and started playing We Didn't Start the Fire.

On the one hand, it doesn't make me think that AI is about to take over the world. On the other hand, it was a horrible, scarring experience. So maybe you have a point.

The scariest thing that i have seen about this, is the AI when used on games, when it know that will win for sure, it start to play with the others player for fun (doing troll like moves). Everyone (good players, Go, chess,starcraft...) that had used the new kind of AI have notice it, that it only behaviors like it should, when it ins't sure about the result. Making very clear that it will not obey humans when it get the upper hand.

I think this says more about the human brain than it does about AI. Are you sure it is trolling you? Or are you just seeing patterns?

Yep! Very sure. And it ins't only me.
If you are more comfortable with chess, i will recommend you to watch this review game of chess (leela-zero-chess vs Stockfish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2FzGQu5eYo
This game show the new AI model vs the old one. And leela-zero has been trained without human data (all by itself).

NOTE: Just for you to know, i don't think that the AI will take over the world, but that the greedy humans using powerful AIs running at quantum computers will.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
richk449 wrote:
ff11 wrote:
richk449 wrote:
True story: I have one of those google home thingies hooked up to my stereo. Yesterday, Uptown Girl by Billy Joel came on. I said "Google, never play Billy Joel again". Google responded "Okay, here is a selection of Billy Joel songs" and started playing We Didn't Start the Fire.

On the one hand, it doesn't make me think that AI is about to take over the world. On the other hand, it was a horrible, scarring experience. So maybe you have a point.

The scariest thing that i have seen about this, is the AI when used on games, when it know that will win for sure, it start to play with the others player for fun (doing troll like moves). Everyone (good players, Go, chess,starcraft...) that had used the new kind of AI have notice it, that it only behaviors like it should, when it ins't sure about the result. Making very clear that it will not obey humans when it get the upper hand.

I think this says more about the human brain than it does about AI. Are you sure it is trolling you? Or are you just seeing patterns?

Yep! Very sure. And it ins't only me.
If you are more comfortable with chess, i will recommend you to watch this review game of chess (leela-zero-chess vs Stockfish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2FzGQu5eYo
This game show the new AI model vs the old one. And leela-zero has been trained without human data (all by itself).

NOTE: Just for you to know, i don't think that the AI will take over the world, but that the greedy humans using powerful AIs running at quantum computers will.

http://nautil.us/issue/84/outbreak/dont-fear-the-robot
Quote:
Watching the robot, we see a complex behavior emerge from these simple rules. The robot moves across the floor until it bumps into something. Then it stops moving forward and turns in place until the path is clear. It then resumes forward motion. Given time, this random motion lets the robot cover, and clean, the entire floor.

Did you guess so little was going on in the first Roomba’s brain? When observers tell me what Roomba is thinking they invariably imagine great complexity—imbuing the robot with intentions and intricate plans that are neither present nor necessary.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
...
http://nautil.us/issue/84/outbreak/dont-fear-the-robot
Quote:
Watching the robot, we see a complex behavior emerge from these simple rules. The robot moves across the floor until it bumps into something. Then it stops moving forward and turns in place until the path is clear. It then resumes forward motion. Given time, this random motion lets the robot cover, and clean, the entire floor.

Did you guess so little was going on in the first Roomba’s brain? When observers tell me what Roomba is thinking they invariably imagine great complexity—imbuing the robot with intentions and intricate plans that are neither present nor necessary.

Well, this kind of text have many influences of movies, marketing companies, and others.

From: https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-2.html
Quote:
...
Let me draw a comparison. If you handed me a guinea pig and told me it definitely won’t bite, I’d probably be amused. It would be fun. If you then handed me a tarantula and told me that it definitely won’t bite, I’d yell and drop it and run out of the room and not trust you ever again. But what’s the difference? Neither one was dangerous in any way. I believe the answer is in the animals’ degree of similarity to me.

A guinea pig is a mammal and on some biological level, I feel a connection to it—but a spider is an insect,18 with an insect brain, and I feel almost no connection to it. The alien-ness of a tarantula is what gives me the willies. To test this and remove other factors, if there are two guinea pigs, one normal one and one with the mind of a tarantula, I would feel much less comfortable holding the latter guinea pig, even if I knew neither would hurt me.

Now imagine that you made a spider much, much smarter—so much so that it far surpassed human intelligence? Would it then become familiar to us and feel human emotions like empathy and humor and love? No, it wouldn’t, because there’s no reason becoming smarter would make it more human—it would be incredibly smart but also still fundamentally a spider in its core inner workings. I find this unbelievably creepy. I would not want to spend time with a superintelligent spider. Would you??

When we’re talking about ASI, the same concept applies—it would become superintelligent, but it would be no more human than your laptop is. It would be totally alien to us—in fact, by not being biology at all, it would be more alien than the smart tarantula.

By making AI either good or evil, movies constantly anthropomorphize AI, which makes it less creepy than it really would be. This leaves us with a false comfort when we think about human-level or superhuman-level AI.
...

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
My claim. It wasn't supposed to be a data analytics tool, it was supposed to be an AI that could "think".

A quick google search:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/diagnostics/how-ibm-watson-overpromised-and-underdelivered-on-ai-health-care
https://www.brightworkresearch.com/demandplanning/2019/06/how-ibm-is-distracting-from-the-watson-failure-to-sell-more-ai/
https://mindmatters.ai/2019/08/why-was-ibm-watson-a-flop-in-medicine/

Only one I have read is the Spectrum article (a while ago).
Thanks. I read the Spectrum article. Interesting and disappointing even if predictable. Maybe it was the "behind the scenes" episode of Watson / Jeopardy, but I never thought it was AI in any real sense. That said, I probably thought they had better analytics than it turns out they actually had.

It seems fairly obvious that a limited and rather rigid format of Jeopardy Q&A style data would be a relatively easy problem. What I find surprising is that they apparently had no more capability than that. To jump from that to complex medical diagnosis and treatment seems like they would have successfully tested with more complex and less rigid data. I have to believe that is more of a management problem than engineers believing they solved the harder problems. I was as equally surprised by the one doctor (Mark Kris) who expected it to be easier and happen more quickly.

I wonder if they would have had better success starting with something more straightforward than cancer. Common optometry or ophthalmology, or perhaps dentistry. I found the most surprising detail to be the difficulty in processing the medical language. I understand the subjective part, but that seemed to only be one facet of the their natural language processing deficiencies.

Thanks for the link.
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
I don't even know what to think anymore, just that something should be more widely discussed on the subject (perhaps is just to make me fell more prepared, i don't know).
What do you think about all this?
Video #2 was annoying, almost as if its target audience was third graders. I haven't yet watched the Go video, but I'll at least check it out at some point.

So far this all seems like machine learning, not AI. Maybe that can eventually be a stepping stone to AI, but machine learning still seems very fragile even if it can sometimes produce impressive results.

I do think automation is going to have a significant impact on employment sooner than later. The first video referenced a bunch of job categories, most of which seemed to be on the sooner than later list for being automated. The video also claimed that was 45% of the workforce, and that the great depression had 25% unemployment.

The list of employed people in those categories was just of 63M. 140M total people in the workforce * .45 is 63M. 1% of that 63M is 630k. It doesn't seem like a stretch for that to happen sooner than later. Fast food have already incorporated germ-laden touch screens for ordering (could easily replace cashiers once old people stop resisting). Same for cashiers in grocery and other big box stores. Of that portion of the workforce, a few percentage points adds up quickly. Will the automated pricing bots dictate a sliding scale of from each according to their means, or will air travel be reduced to where it started, a playground for the wealthy (or in this case, employed)?

Henry Ford was smart enough to realize people had to earn enough money to buy his product. It seems a lot of people have ignored that lesson.
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 6:05 am    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Can a computer invent the game of go? Isn't inventing the game much more impressive than learning to follow the rules and be good at it?
I would say yes to your second question. Does it matter if a computers are currently incapable of creating Go? No person can recreate it. To that point, I'm not aware of a computer having created any games, though I'd be surprised if they hadn't, even if not very human enjoyable games.

In the 'death of melody' thread, you referenced automated music creation. I'd say that's related. The first video in this thread played a sample of a generated piano composition. I'd agree with the video that I couldn't tell. But it was also as bland as a lot of modern music, so there's that. I should also mention that I don't find all classical music to be that compelling, so the achievement is still notable.

Back to games, how often are new games created by humans? I'm going to exclude the dopamine driven style of mobile games. I'm sure there are some mobile games that aren't of that type, but I don't know how new they are, or if they are specifically something an AI couldn't create.

Given the reuse of game engines and repetitive first person format that has taken over what seems like the majority of modern games, it seems like machine learning could reproduce some of those. Maybe that's an area of cost savings. Fewer people to put the finishing touches on the next Counter Strike (or whatever). But those remaining employees will still probably have to work 80+ hours as release time approaches. Maybe the current game engine designers can come up with an "AI" to generate the next game engines since fewer and fewer people are probably going to have that skill set.
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
...
Video #2 was annoying, almost as if its target audience was third graders. I haven't yet watched the Go video, but I'll at least check it out at some point.
...
Will the automated pricing bots dictate a sliding scale of from each according to their means, or will air travel be reduced to where it started, a playground for the wealthy (or in this case, employed)?

Henry Ford was smart enough to realize people had to earn enough money to buy his product. It seems a lot of people have ignored that lesson.

That's make the Video #2 perfect to make the point that many people are ignoring: That we are making one revolution now, using something advanced that we don't understand how it works at all (it's literally coming out of random), but we don't care either, we care about the advancements, the money, and the potential, no mater the costs.
It's just the History repeating itself.

If you think about this, let's say, hypothetically, that some god make a lot of humans to make one specific task (at random), then after a large number of humans, this god found one that can make this task, and after that, this human will do only this task, then can we really think that this human can do only this task, nothing more?!
So i will recommend that you read this first (only this part2 is enough): https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-2.html
because by the time we can claim that AI has gained awareness, it may already be too late.
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Can a computer invent the game of go? Isn't inventing the game much more impressive than learning to follow the rules and be good at it?
I would say yes to your second question. Does it matter if a computers are currently incapable of creating Go? No person can recreate it. To that point, I'm not aware of a computer having created any games, though I'd be surprised if they hadn't, even if not very human enjoyable games.

Yea, originally I was just trying to make the point that computers weren't "winning", if winning means being able to do the most sophisticated tasks. They are definitely automating away the easy stuff, but in a way, even that could be a win for humans, if they play their cards right.

Quote:
Given the reuse of game engines and repetitive first person format that has taken over what seems like the majority of modern games, it seems like machine learning could reproduce some of those. Maybe that's an area of cost savings. Fewer people to put the finishing touches on the next Counter Strike (or whatever). But those remaining employees will still probably have to work 80+ hours as release time approaches. Maybe the current game engine designers can come up with an "AI" to generate the next game engines since fewer and fewer people are probably going to have that skill set.

Agreed. I'm sure they will use machine learning tools more and more to speed up game development.
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
That we are making one revolution now, using something advanced that we don't understand how it works at all (it's literally coming out of random), but we don't care either, we care about the advancements, the money, and the potential, no mater the costs.

I don't think there is any great mystery about how current machine learning techniques work. Sometimes the results, or the effectiveness, can be surprising, but it can always be traced back to understandable principles.
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
I don't think there is any great mystery about how current machine learning techniques work. Sometimes the results, or the effectiveness, can be surprising, but it can always be traced back to understandable principles.

Only for simple task that humans can do (to be replaced by the machine). But like in the movie of AlphaGo, we have the computer team talk like "we don't understand enough of Go to know...". And is we that are learning from the AI now.
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Humans vs. Machines - this time is real Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
richk449 wrote:
I don't think there is any great mystery about how current machine learning techniques work. Sometimes the results, or the effectiveness, can be surprising, but it can always be traced back to understandable principles.

Only for simple task that humans can do (to be replaced by the machine). But like in the movie of AlphaGo, we have the computer team talk like "we don't understand enough of Go to know...". And is we that are learning from the AI now.

Fair enough. Although all the individual steps are understandable, the program can still reach conclusions that we can’t reason about directly.
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