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lefsha
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
lefsha wrote:
Well, I stop here. Good luck.

Considering your evangelical rant, you should build your own distribution within which to push your strange philosophy. I'm pretty sure most of the rest of us are here for up-to-date, stable, and well integrated, and not a bunch of out-of-date statically linked applications.


I should not. There is one - https://suckless.org/
The problem is simple. One can't build a fully working Distro with musl, because not all packages are compatible with that.
And with glibc one can't build statically linked distro. The developers of each software should either make it compatible with
musl, which won't happen or glibc developers should return back static linking ability, which is lost. And that also won't happen.

The only possibility a new system a Rust based one for example. Rust produces statically built binaries by default!
I don't think you have expertise to call them stupid because of that.

On a long run Rust is our future. C and C++ should go.

You simply didn't get the point. If your only experience with office/browser based software there is no wonder about your reaction.
Before you charge whether I am wrong or right you have to understand what I am saying. That understanding is not given.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etnull wrote:
because where else you can mask/ban Poettering on your system like so


I don't quite understand. If you have a program which depends on the one from your list - you
cannot ban/mask it.

If there is no such a program none from the list will be installed anyway - so again no reason
to do so.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
https://www.infoworld.com/article/3109830/why-did-gentoo-linux-fade-into-obscurity.html


Well, it is quite obvious why people are leaving. A food in restaurant is already made. Why spending time
for coocking and blame ourselves we put too much salt?

Since 2002 PC got more powerfull - why get +5% in benchmark and spend days/weeks setting everything up?

The complexity of portage has increased over time. What is the benefit? Where are the money?

There should be something, which offer you advantages for spending more time and electricity.

People have hard time to find it. They are leaving. Not a surprize.


It is perverse, that people install Gentoo to get rid of systemd. Although still growing Linux is in danger.

Gentoo developers should offer something which justify reason to install Gentoo.
There is not enough willingness to think about it nor to implement it.

Freedom of speech nowaday turned into power of the crowd.
As long you have a crowd behind you - you may say any bullshit and people will admire you.
If there is no crowd you may be Albert Einstein, but people will hate you.
That happens in almost every big or small community.


To my understanding Gentoo is more applicable to servers, then desktop.
More important where CPU power is still not enough. Again it is rarely a desktop.
The end goal offer max GFLOPS with min resources.

Some may use it for a desktop too. Hungry people who aren't happy or satisified
with what others are offering.

For example a tailored system for equipment control. etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
lefsha wrote:
Who you are to decide what other people should use on their system if they wish to do so?

+1


figueroa wrote:
lefsha wrote:
Well, I stop here. Good luck.

you should build your own distribution within which to push your strange philosophy. I'm pretty sure most of the rest of us are here for up-to-date, stable, and well integrated, and not a bunch of out-of-date statically linked applications.

NO, and the horse you rode in on. -1
I guess the +1 was referring to people making choices for their own system, provided it was not Gentoo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

etnull wrote:
because where else you can mask/ban Poettering on your system like so:
Quote:
# http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/?C=M;O=D
net-dns/avahi
net-p2p/syrep
sys-auth/pam_dotfile
sys-auth/nss-mdns
sys-auth/nss-myhostname
www-apache/mod_dnssd
sys-apps/ifplugd
sys-apps/systemd
dev-libs/libdaemon
net-libs/libasyncns
net-analyzer/ifmetric
net-analyzer/mdns-scan
media-libs/libcanberra
media-sound/paprefs
media-sound/pulseaudio
media-sound/pavumeter
media-sound/pavucontrol
media-sound/pulseaudio-ctl

and still not be judged by the distro's community...

Where's the lists for all the other bad developers? Don't tell me you're fine with the amount of influence Sony has over this distro?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
figueroa wrote:
https://www.infoworld.com/article/3109830/why-did-gentoo-linux-fade-into-obscurity.html


Well, it is quite obvious why people are leaving. A food in restaurant is already made. Why spending time
for coocking and blame ourselves we put too much salt?

The point of my sharing that is that it is FAKE news.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
4. Absolutely every sofware has bugs. It doesn't matter how it was written or built. All those bugs are unknown on the release day,
otherwise there will be no release day.
Many programs are released with known bugs, if the release manager determines that the bug is not of sufficient importance to merit deferring the release.
lefsha wrote:
7. And yes. That is the explanation why "30 versions" of some library should live together. If the library statically linked there is no issue
to upate the rest of the system and garantee the critical part will be functional. If there is dynamic linking the whole system is blocked from
any upgrade with or without security issues.
The problem with static linking is multipart. In the first part, it is frustratingly common that statically linked supporting libraries are not properly recorded, so when a change to the supporting library is published, it is difficult to determine which packages need a rebuild versus which ones can ignore it. Even worse, if the package was built by someone else, they may not even have recorded what static libraries they linked in at all, so you have even less visibility into whether an update is relevant.

In the second part, with static linking, if a supporting library is modified, every consuming program must be rebuilt to receive the update. With dynamic linking, the fixed library is installed, all programs using the old version are identified by examining the list of mapped shared objects, and the relevant programs are restarted.
lefsha wrote:
8. Any system with 30 or 31 libraries, whether static or dynamically linked can be updated to avoid security holes. One just need to be willing to do so.
Willing, and able. As above, tooling for determining exactly what needs to be updated is much worse for static linking than for dynamic linking. You could argue that the solution to insufficient information is better tooling. If that tooling exists, it is not used nearly widely enough to matter. Until that changes, the reality of static linking is that determining what to update is enough trouble that most people will just give up and rebuild everything that plausibly might be affected. That is a lot more work than just installing a fixed version of a dynamic library.

Moreover, with dynamic linking, the boundary is maintained at a level that it is viable to provide fixed supporting libraries for a consuming package that you cannot rebuild. Suppose a vendor gives you a program that uses TLS. Suppose further that the vendor statically linked some ancient version of OpenSSL with known and relevant security bugs. Even knowing this, you cannot do anything to fix it. Now suppose that instead the vendor dynamically linked to that ancient version of OpenSSL, and distributed a bundled copy of that ancient version. You have the option of obtaining the source of that OpenSSL version, patching it to fix the problems, and swapping in the fixed version - even if the vendor's program is closed source and cannot be rebuilt.
lefsha wrote:
If people keep "30 libraries" of the same functionality they always have a good reason for that. They try to solve bigger problem, than security
issue.
Static linking seems to be strongly correlated with upstream projects that want a build-once-run-everyone application. That attitude seems to be strongly correlated with a general disinterest in doing any non-mandatory work. Thus, the most common "good reason" for static linking is that it is very easy to set up, and someone else deals with all the negative consequences. Similarly, that attitude of putting forth only the most minimal effort is generally correlated with having no interest in enabling use cases that upstream considers "minority." (Witness the recent mess with Telegram and Wayland.)
lefsha wrote:
Many of such big bundles depends on old versions of libraries, which are not existing in Gentoo tree. Not anymore.
Because Gentoo developers consider them outdated... Why anyone would need old if there is a new? - That is broken conception.
Old packages are retired when the burden of keeping them exceeds the perceived value of keeping them. The Gentoo project does not have sufficient developer resources to adopt and maintain major packages that were abandoned upstream.
lefsha wrote:
If you put 3 people on a car on a bike and pedestrian to go one direction very soon they won't be able to communicate to each other,
because of different speed! If the boss is on the car, than other 2 will be soon considered dead and not moving.
The support (food etc) for them on a distance will be dropped. That way they will be effectively killed.

To survive they have to care about them by themselves. That is where 30 versions of a lib come from.
It is not required to have giant brain to understand that.
My brain is not large enough to understand your analogy here. Are you proposing that the boss will use the car to horde all the food so that the pedestrian starves while chasing the bicyclist?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
fturco wrote:
On the other hand, I wish Gentoo was a 100% free GNU/Linux distribution without any proprietary software.

A very strange opinion. Without something means something is missing. Who you are to decide what other people should
use on their system if they wish to do so?

Definitively not a strange or uncommon opinion. Never heard of Richard Stallman or the GNU project?
As I said before, my idea is that people requiring proprietary software would be free to use them via overlays or some other unofficial method, while keeping everything on the gentoo.org domain clean and free.
Also, I'm not some sort of "dictator" that unilaterally wants to force you to stop using proprietary software. Instead, I wish a collective decision were made on this topic by developers/users. But obviously there first need to be a majority of people that shares my opinion. Unfortunately, it is unlikely to be the case yet.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Where's the lists for all the other bad developers? Don't tell me you're fine with the amount of influence Sony has over this distro?

Some things are in my control, other things are not. I can't for example persuade linux foundation to stop accepting donations from google, amazon and microsoft, I cant force nvidia to open their drivers, etc. but I can do such things as not to use systemd, google search, and other 'minor' things, everything else I just ignore until the pain is tolerable.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I guess the +1 was referring to people making choices for their own system, provided it was not Gentoo?

Why Gentoo is excluded? I see no difference. Every user/admin may do what ever he/she want with the system.
Install commercial software or crash it against the wall. I don't understand people, who want to put some restrictions
based on their own believes. Those should keep own believes for themselves.

Or in the simple wording - don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you where to go.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
The point of my sharing that is that it is FAKE news.


What exactly is the FAKE news?

IMHO the term FAKE news is overused these days. What ever people don't like they call fake news.

I suggest a different reaction to such things.

1. You may say - I disagree with someones opinion and I have my reasons for that 1, 2 and 3.
2. Or you may say - I don't like particular people what ever they say. It is honest at least.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
Many programs are released with known bugs, if the release manager determines that the bug is not of sufficient importance to merit deferring the release.


well, that is also possible of course.

Hu wrote:
The problem with static linking is multipart. In the first part, it is frustratingly common that statically linked supporting libraries are not properly recorded, so when a change to the supporting library is published, it is difficult to determine which packages need a rebuild versus which ones can ignore it. Even worse, if the package was built by someone else, they may not even have recorded what static libraries they linked in at all, so you have even less visibility into whether an update is relevant.


1. There is NO problem with static linking! It is simply not possible these days. I have mentioned why.
2. "it is difficult to determine which packages need a rebuild versus which ones can ignore it"

I see absolutely NO difficulty to determine anything like that. There is absolutely NO difference comparing to dynamic linking.

A program A depends on the library B. As soon I wish to upgrade the program A I may upgrade the library B.
A program C may depend on library B-1.2.3 and that dependency will stay as long the developer of program C consider
it is valid. And so on.

A static library may be installed on the system or used only to build a program which relies on it.

3. "if the package was built by someone else, they may not even have recorded" - it is a nonsense what you say.
It works already now and it will work forever. You won't be able to demonstrate the difference between dynamic and static linking
in that regard. If you insist what you say is valid, which I disagree with, you have to accept, that dynamic linking is exactly the same.

Hu wrote:
In the second part, with static linking, if a supporting library is modified, every consuming program must be rebuilt to receive the update.


Who ever can tell me that, but not Gentoo user! No way. You should stop using Gentoo in that moment to stay consequent and sane.

Yes, a consuming program must be rebuilt ONLY if you plan to upgrade it. If you don't upgrade the software you should not do anything.
If you upgrade, then you may use prebuilt old version of a library or build a new version of that library - absolutely exactly the same
way like in dynamic linking. Absolutely NO difference.

I tell you a secret! Don't tell others. To use a dynamic library you have to built it before that as well. I know it is hard to imagine.

If your programs rely on a single version of that library you should built it once. If multiple programs use multiple versions
of dynamic libraries they have to be built multiple times as well. Again absolutely no difference.

Hu wrote:
With dynamic linking, the fixed library is installed, all programs using the old version are identified by examining the list of mapped shared objects, and the relevant programs are restarted.


KDE 5 won't work with QT3. No way. At least not without source code modification.
It is a fantasy, that dynamic linking ignores version dependency. The opposite is true. An upgrade of a library may easily
break the system, the whole system completely!


Hu wrote:
As above, tooling for determining exactly what needs to be updated is much worse for static linking than for dynamic linking.


There is no difference whatsoever. Musl works here well.

Of course I don't mean that glibc cannot be used for static linking. But that was the intention, which is easy to make reverse.
A good example is Rust. It produces static linked binaries by default. It works well and has no issues.
If to make a distro static we need to move from C to Rust it is rather the advantage, than the opposite.


Hu wrote:
You could argue that the solution to insufficient information is better tooling. If that tooling exists, it is not used nearly widely enough to matter. Until that changes, the reality of static linking is that determining what to update is enough trouble that most people will just give up and rebuild everything that plausibly might be affected. That is a lot more work than just installing a fixed version of a dynamic library.


It is definitely NOT more work. You won't be able to demonstrate any proof of your words. See above. There is no difference
in complexity.


With the current situation more and more flatpacks and other independent packages will be generated and provided.
That is really more work and people go for it to get rid of issues from dynamic linking. The reality is against your point of view!
What can be worse than that?

Just look at Firefox for example. It comes with its own versions of many libraries which are anyway available on the system.
Tell me, that Mozilla Developers are stupid! Tell me that Chrome developers are stupid - they do the same.

It is so easy and hassle free to use dynamic libraries - why the hell every program with 100+ lines of code is dreaming
to get rid of them???

You wish to argue? - First understand the reality and people motivation. A theory must be able to explain the reality,
not contradict with it.

Your theory is against the reality. My theory is fully inline with reality. Now who is correct?


P.S. I skip the rest of blah-blah-blah. Take your time and think well again and again.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fturco wrote:
Definitively not a strange or uncommon opinion. Never heard of Richard Stallman or the GNU project?


How is that related? Please try to formulate thoughts which make sense! Don't just put word together.

I call your opinion strange, because it is not consequent.
There are generally 2 options.
1. You may be against the freedom
2. You may support the freedom.

If you are against the freedom, than you may insist to forbid other people do something. To achieve that you need a lot of power.
A financial and military power. I doubt you have any of those. And that means you are just a troll.
Your words cost nothing.

If you are supporting the freedom - you have to allow other people do what ever they want.
There is no option for you to insist that people do something you like. Not every one has the same opinion.

It is similar to smoking the cigarettes. Every one knows it is bad for health, but you can't forbid people to smoke.
What you should do instead is promoting a non-smoking life style.

If we apply that to software - you have to write a program with equivalent functionality like a commercial one.
A good example here is LibreOffice.

How many programs you have written personally? - None? Zero?

Please stop yelling and became adult. And please do something with your logic - it is broken.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Don't tell me you're fine with the amount of influence Sony has over this distro?


Well, I am fine if anyone including Sony is supporting that Distro. What exactly is bad in that?


P.S. I didn't know it. Thank you Sony very much! Arigate gasaimas!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
It is similar to smoking the cigarettes. Every one knows it is bad for health, but you can't forbid people to smoke.
What you should do instead is promoting a non-smoking life style.

Banning cigarette production sounds good to me. If something is objectively bad, and can be avoided, then ban it.

lefsha wrote:
If we apply that to software - you have to write a program with equivalent functionality like a commercial one.
A good example here is LibreOffice.

Again, a better, more effective idea is to ban proprietary software directly.

lefsha wrote:
How many programs you have written personally? - None? Zero?

It doesn't matter at all. Software is not the domain of developers only. Users have rights, too.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
figueroa wrote:
The point of my sharing that is that it is FAKE news.


What exactly is the FAKE news?

Meaning it's not true. Click count on Distrowatch proves nothing at all. The writer is complaining about Gentoo's click ranking on Distrowatch as if it meant something.

Instead, you should visit this page: https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
To my understanding Gentoo is more applicable to servers, then desktop.
More important where CPU power is still not enough. Again it is rarely a desktop.
The end goal offer max GFLOPS with min resources.

Some may use it for a desktop too. Hungry people who aren't happy or satisified
with what others are offering.

For example a tailored system for equipment control. etc.

I absolutely use Gentoo on the desktop and do most others here. The forum discussions of desktops would show you that. Desktop and WM help is always available from other users.

I also use it on servers, but being fully aware that updates may break things, I'm always no more than a week away from my most recent full-system backup in case restoration is needed -- which, by the way, has never been needed except in the case of hardware failure.

You are one unhappy dude. Almost like a troll. Don't you have ANYTHING to contribute?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fturco wrote:
Banning cigarette production sounds good to me. If something is objectively bad, and can be avoided, then ban it.


As long as you ignore the consequences of your decision. They could be quite bad personally for you.
There are people who consider smoking as their rights for freedom. You take their freedom - they will take your
freedom including your life...

You may do what ever you wish as long as you are ready to pay for consequences.
Just don't ask other people do the same.

fturco wrote:
Again, a better, more effective idea is to ban proprietary software directly.


You have to spend a year in North Korea. There you will be told what you have to do and what not.
I guarantee if you survive you come back as a different person.

fturco wrote:
Users have rights, too.


Exactly. Don't tell them what to do and they won't tell you where to go.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
If you are supporting the freedom - you have to allow other people do what ever they want.

No - I will not allow other people doing what ever they want ! I dont know how old you are, but for me it looks like you havent learned that you live in a community - like me too.

This means you are not free, because your freedom ends where the freedom of others begins.

"Smoking" is a bad example for freedom, because if you blow some smoke into one others face you hurt one others freedom (I am saying this as smoker).


lefsha wrote:
Please stop yelling and became adult. And please do something with your logic - it is broken.

... Now I really want to know how old you are ...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
Meaning it's not true. Click count on Distrowatch proves nothing at all.


I was not able to find any comment about Distrowatch in cited articles.
Who cares about Distrowatch?

The articles gave a reasonable explanation why people are leaving Gentoo.
Any Distro should have it's reason to exist.

Look at Funtoo. Why does it exist and what they try to achieve?

Gentoo is a product. It should have the unique selling proposition.
If there is none Gentoo will fall apart sooner or later.

That should be clearly formulated. Exactly like in that topic. 1-2-3.

These 1-2-3 must be unique. If they are exactly the same with Ubuntu,
the risk is high to see it dead very soon.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pietinger wrote:
No - I will not allow other people doing what ever they want!


Bitte, Sag keinen Unsinn. Denk mal nach, bevor Du etwas schreibst.

Like I said to insist other people do what you want you have to posses financial and military power.
Germany is incapable to decide what to do inside of Germany. First get back the control under your
own country and then you may think about further steps like forcing others to do what you want.
Before that any one will be just laughing at your face.

pietinger wrote:
I dont know how old you are, but for me it looks like you havent learned that you live in a community - like me too.


Based on your words I am much older than you. Yes we all live in a community. And that is why we cannot
decide for other people what they have to do. Looks like you are still missing DDR style of control.

In a democratic society like NRW comparing to Bavaria you may only try to convince other people,
that your position is better. They are still free to disagree with you and keep doing what they wish
and what they consider as correct.

After September 8 go back to school and ask your teacher about DDR. Hopefully they will tell you the story.

pietinger wrote:
"Smoking" is a bad example for freedom, because if you blow some smoke into one others face you hurt one others freedom (I am saying this as smoker).


If I remember correctly it is not allowed to sell cigarettes to kids in Germany.

The position of fturco is limiting my freedom. My position is not limiting any ones freedom.
Are you able to see the difference?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
figueroa wrote:
Meaning it's not true. Click count on Distrowatch proves nothing at all.


I was not able to find any comment about Distrowatch in cited articles.
Who cares about Distrowatch?


So, you skipped the TITLE and SUBTITLE of the article? "Why did Gentoo Linux fade into obscurity? Also in today's open source roundup: DistroWatch reviews the Gentoo Linux live DVD "Choice Edition," and Google will kill Chrome apps for Linux

Otherwise, you have a completely juvenile understanding of the Linux ecosystem. Read more and write less.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DDR is great exercise, but how are dance moves relevant here?
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
pjp wrote:
I guess the +1 was referring to people making choices for their own system, provided it was not Gentoo?

Why Gentoo is excluded? I see no difference. Every user/admin may do what ever he/she want with the system.
Install commercial software or crash it against the wall. I don't understand people, who want to put some restrictions
based on their own believes. Those should keep own believes for themselves.

Or in the simple wording - don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you where to go.
I don't know, that's why I asked figueroa for clarification. In one post he seemed to agree with user choice. In the other post, he seemed to disagree with user choice by stating "build your own distribution within which to push your strange philosophy".
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
lefsha wrote:
pjp wrote:
I guess the +1 was referring to people making choices for their own system, provided it was not Gentoo?

Why Gentoo is excluded? I see no difference. Every user/admin may do what ever he/she want with the system.
Install commercial software or crash it against the wall. I don't understand people, who want to put some restrictions
based on their own believes. Those should keep own believes for themselves.

Or in the simple wording - don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you where to go.
I don't know, that's why I asked figueroa for clarification. In one post he seemed to agree with user choice. In the other post, he seemed to disagree with user choice by stating "build your own distribution within which to push your strange philosophy".

Oh, you were asking me.

Yes, I agreed (+1) with that ONE posting by lefsha, about someon making choices for other people, but that post didn't mention "provided it was not Gentoo." That was added later by another. I should have never done that. I didn't mean to encourage him.
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andy@andyfigueroa.net Working with Unix since 1983.
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