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fturco
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
fturco wrote:
but I still wish a collective decision could be made to remove all proprietary software from the official Gentoo repository, from the Gentoo wiki, etc.

So, you want to impose your preferences on all other users. Blech!

Users that want to use evil proprietary software could still use unofficial third-party overlays, or they could even fork Gentoo and create their own lesser distribution. It should be their own problem. In that case it would be quite easy for people like me to ignore their futile efforts. I simply dislike the fact that on Gentoo proprietary software is held in the same regard as free software, despite the former being often malware.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you should be rolling your own, a la LFS, and quit trying to evangelize the rest of us.

EDITED -- ADDED:

I agree with you in principle as long as your principles don't make it difficult for me to maintain a desktop system that is useful to do the work that desktop computers were meant to do. I wish my hardware didn't need a proprietary blob or two and so forth, but I think Gentoo has the right balance and freedom of choices, without making those choices difficult.
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BANANMANX47
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because Ubuntu is too hard to install!
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BANANMANX47 wrote:
Because Ubuntu is too hard to install!

Because Ubuntoo is too hard to get right.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linux Mint / Cinnamon did a decent job of it back in 2012 with version 13 / Maya, but I only used it briefly in a couple of VMs.

Somewhat amusing (to me at least) is that it was based on Ubuntu version with the name "Precise Pangolin."
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risset
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has all I'd want from a Linux distribution really: rolling release, great package management, comprehensive documentation, lots of system configuration options available such as forgoing systemd. The community and developers have always seemed very friendly and knowledgeable as well.
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etnull
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

because where else you can mask/ban Poettering on your system like so:
Quote:
# http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/?C=M;O=D
net-dns/avahi
net-p2p/syrep
sys-auth/pam_dotfile
sys-auth/nss-mdns
sys-auth/nss-myhostname
www-apache/mod_dnssd
sys-apps/ifplugd
sys-apps/systemd
dev-libs/libdaemon
net-libs/libasyncns
net-analyzer/ifmetric
net-analyzer/mdns-scan
media-libs/libcanberra
media-sound/paprefs
media-sound/pulseaudio
media-sound/pavumeter
media-sound/pavucontrol
media-sound/pulseaudio-ctl

and still not be judged by the distro's community...
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piep
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

etnull wrote:
because where else you can mask/ban Poettering on your system like so:
Quote:
# http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/?C=M;O=D
net-dns/avahi
net-p2p/syrep
sys-auth/pam_dotfile
sys-auth/nss-mdns
sys-auth/nss-myhostname
www-apache/mod_dnssd
sys-apps/ifplugd
sys-apps/systemd
dev-libs/libdaemon
net-libs/libasyncns
net-analyzer/ifmetric
net-analyzer/mdns-scan
media-libs/libcanberra
media-sound/paprefs
media-sound/pulseaudio
media-sound/pavumeter
media-sound/pavucontrol
media-sound/pulseaudio-ctl

and still not be judged by the distro's community...


IMO the judging tone of many users and even mods/devs have been noticeably increasing in the last decade in this regard. There is this vibe I've been getting when reading these forums lately, consisting in putting people who are willingly and openly trying to avoid Poettering's aggressive influence in the linux world into the "hysteria" bag in a rather passive way. This vibe I am talking about kind of relates, in my opinion, to the -often used in a derogatory manner- calling "conspiracy theorist" to anyone questioning simple world events, which might or might not need more public attention due to inconsistencies or whatever. Anyhow, I understand in other places the situation is completely out of control, which might be the reason this corner still deliver that taste you mentioned above: "and still not be judged by the distro's community..."
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only things I'm using from the proposed Poettering block list is avahi, libcanberra, and libdaemon. I'm masking systemd and pulseaudio and otherwise, I don't see any reason to mask things that are actually helpful to me on a day-to-day basis.

Packages are not cursed just because they carry a particular developers fingerprints.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packages are cursed if they are hosted in a data center built on an ancient Indian burial ground.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
Packages are cursed if they are hosted in a data center built on an ancient Indian burial ground.
That wasn't a Poettergeist joke was it? I presume not. I'll see myself out.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
Packages are cursed if they are hosted in a data center built on an ancient Indian burial ground.

I had no idea ...
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Hu
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
That wasn't a Poettergeist joke was it? I presume not. I'll see myself out.
It was not. Although the thread was about projects that Poettering has worked on, I was only thinking of the second paragraph of the preceding post, and didn't even think of making your joke.
figueroa wrote:
I had no idea ...
When constructing a data center, it's important to watch for subtle clues, such as the presence of a sacred token ring, or a fire suppression system that activates when the installers dance to the music of certain streaming services.
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trazodone
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a new user. Installed it this week. I've been using Debian/Ubuntu for a while, and I'm very comfortable with Arch. The new Ubuntu builds are really unstable, even more so when you do-release-upgrade. I had two versions of lightdm installed at the same time, conflicting with one another, and they were all due to the package manager's automatic behavior. Debian Buster sells itself as stable but since it's somewhat "new" there are many instabilities to be solved yet. I'm also really comfortable with Arch, and last time I did an install of it I thought the installation process was really easy. So I thought, "well, I think Gentoo might be within my reach now".

So I'm fine-tuning it. I like how fast it is, and the big compile times give me a reason to get away from the computer for a while. I still dual boot Debian should any thing more urgent make itself present.

"I don't know" would be the honest answer. I'm experimenting. But I'm happy with it. The headaches make themselves worth the while, and I like the fine-grained control that it gives me. I can get basically the same functionality as I get on Debian with 1/4 of the number of packages and 10 times the speed.

And portage is really sexy.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trazodone wrote:
"I don't know" would be the honest answer. I'm experimenting. But I'm happy with it. The headaches make themselves worth the while, and I like the fine-grained control that it gives me. I can get basically the same functionality as I get on Debian with 1/4 of the number of packages and 10 times the speed.

And portage is really sexy.


I think you found it. One thing to remember is that you don't have to watch packages build. Get it going and go ahead and keep working on other things. Welcome to Gentoo.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran into this from five years ago. I though tit might be a fun read for the rest of you.
https://timboudreau.com/blog/gentoo/read

ADDED:

Then there is this, which I think is baloney: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3109830/why-did-gentoo-linux-fade-into-obscurity.html

I found these while searching for something completely unrelated.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Why do you use Gentoo? Reply with quote

neyuru wrote:
1) Name (at most) 3 important features you find on Gentoo but won't in other distros (or simply is better implemented in Gentoo)?


1. Systemd & pulseaudio are not pushed and still everything works.
2. Not 100%, but certain freedom to install what is required and not what is not required.
3. Being source based is THE ONLY way to install what ever exists on github or gitlab or other repos.
Binary packages are not provided by default for each and every system. Arch Linux is a good example.
AUR is mostly source based.

neyuru wrote:
2) Name (at most) 3 features you don't find on Gentoo but wished it had?

1. Less dependencies. Still there are so many cases, when dependecy is not required either for building
or for running. Some packages indeed are working together, but they are not in dependency relation to each other.

2. Static builds for everything. IDK how much time it will take till majority will realize, that dynamic linking is legacy
and misconception. Things like LTO are pushing us towards that direction, but slowly.

3. Sane portage system. The system, which solves dependency in a reasonable way AND is not trying to be smarter
than human. The main disadvantage of all smart systems, that at certain point of development they try to substitute
a human and fail dramatically.


P.S. Despite being far from perfect I can see a distro on the horizont, which offer the same or more.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fturco wrote:
On the other hand, I wish Gentoo was a 100% free GNU/Linux distribution without any proprietary software.


A very strange opinion. Without something means something is missing. Who you are to decide what other people should
use on their system if they wish to do so?
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
Who you are to decide what other people should use on their system if they wish to do so?

+1
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lefsha
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etnull wrote:
I like configuratability of gentoo, and that most people here don't like systemd, which is close to my own 'ideology'.

What I want is for Gentoo to innovate more, and to have something similar to guix, but not written in guile and fully integrated as a main package manager. I think in modern days having friction-less installs is more valuable than the saved space we have from shared libraries. That's why flatpacks and snaps getting more popular. The days when you needed to fit the entire distribution in 700MB are over, today 250GB SSD is cheap as dirt, why saving space with the big downside of conflicts if you can just install everything the app needs or wants, the exact version it wants it. Of course there are places where you have space constraints, like routers, microprocessors etc, but we are not positioning Gentoo as a system tailored to those needs anyway.


You catch the problem correctly. But the solution you think of is the misconception. The proper answer is static build.
A single piece of software should not depend in run time from other piece of software. Built once should work forever
till CPU is still working.

The original problem calls - dynamic linking. Get rid of it and 99% of problems will disappear.
No flatpac will be necessary.

Static build has no limitiations and has highest possible performance. Dynamic linking is nothing but troubles.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
etnull,

That way lies a security nightmare. Say 30 apps with 30 different versions of the same library and 29 of them with security issues ...
How do you keep track of and fix that?

Its not a space problem, as you say. Its a security problem.


That is another misconception. IDK who was the first with that strange idea and why it has spread so far.

The reality is different.

1. Security is not always the issue. By far not 100% of PCs or boards with CPU connected to network or accesible to
unpredicted number of people.

2. The main rule is that software should work. If it doesn't no one cares about anything else. There is no security issue if the
software is not working. The PC will be powered off in such a case. It is valid for 100% of equipment controlled by PC - no exclusion.

3. Only if the software is working it make sense to talk about anything else including security issues.

4. Absolutely every sofware has bugs. It doesn't matter how it was written or built. All those bugs are unknown on the release day,
otherwise there will be no release day.

5. It takes time to discover bugs. But the software updates are not guaranted or given and they are neither for free.
It is worse. There is no guarantee the newer version will be better or will work at all with combination of other software
installed on the system or on the system connected over network (LAN).

6. In 95% of cases the managment decision is to avoid software update for critical parts. It might cause the down-time and million dollars loss.

7. And yes. That is the explanation why "30 versions" of some library should live together. If the library statically linked there is no issue
to upate the rest of the system and garantee the critical part will be functional. If there is dynamic linking the whole system is blocked from
any upgrade with or without security issues.

Please next time face the reality instead of dreaming about spherical horses in vacuum.

8. Any system with 30 or 31 libraries, whether static or dynamically linked can be updated to avoid security holes. One just need to be willing to do so.

If people keep "30 libraries" of the same functionality they always have a good reason for that. They try to solve bigger problem, than security
issue.

Flatpacks and similar exist only, because of total ignorance of static linking by Linux community and because some software if it is open source
is really really hard to build on the own PC (not because of lack of CPU power, but because of BAD design). A good example: SALOME. OpenFOAM, FreeCAD etc. Mostly scientific and engineering software.


N.B. Just look at the epic story Python2 vs Python3. We still require python2 for Firefox. It is not a noname program which still cannot
move to Pyhton3, because of one man show. Many different pieces rely on a different Python version and should somehow work together.
It is a nightmare. The situation with Python3 is not much better. There are still different software which require 3.6 or 3.8 to work.


It is not without a reason ebuilds for them are absent in the main tree. It took me long time to build most of them. And I still fail to build SALOME.
At least smesh always gives me error messages what ever I do.

Many of such big bundles depends on old versions of libraries, which are not existing in Gentoo tree. Not anymore.
Because Gentoo developers consider them outdated... Why anyone would need old if there is a new? - That is broken conception.


If you put 3 people on a car on a bike and pedestrian to go one direction very soon they won't be able to communicate to each other,
because of different speed! If the boss is on the car, than other 2 will be soon considered dead and not moving.
The support (food etc) for them on a distance will be dropped. That way they will be effectively killed.

To survive they have to care about them by themselves. That is where 30 versions of a lib come from.
It is not required to have giant brain to understand that.

Most people on earth think, that if they are hungry - everyone else is hungry too. If they want to sleep - every one else feels the same.

Like in that thread. A single person believes that all commercial software should disappear. That may be OK for him.
But bad thing is that he believes - it is valid for everyone else. And we all should run to make his dream come true.


Well, I stop here. Good luck.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etnull wrote:
why carrying the old vulnerable junk, plus it's less work for the maintainers.


Perfect example of my words!

My suggestion is to kill everyone who is older than 40yo. It will save the planet from this old junk...


P.S. Obviously I am exaggerating, of course the idea is stupid. 40yo is too early. 45 is may be OK.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
Well, I stop here. Good luck.

Considering your evangelical rant, you should build your own distribution within which to push your strange philosophy. I'm pretty sure most of the rest of us are here for up-to-date, stable, and well integrated, and not a bunch of out-of-date statically linked applications.

NO, and the horse you rode in on. -1
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
https://timboudreau.com/blog/gentoo/read

Thanks for posting that. Very well said. I wish I knew that link earlier, when I was asked about Gentoo advantages several times...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dorsai! wrote:
I dislike that portage does not have the ability to automatically set use-flag dependencies


It has this ability! But god bless portage it can be disabled.

Dorsai! wrote:

like when I set abi_x86_32 on wine, it should propagate through the depenendy tree.


Can't see what is good in that. It is not something you suppose to switch on and off.

Dorsai! wrote:

I dislike how ruby/python versions are managed because either it makes it hard to only have the minimal necessary versions installed, or you have to manually update PYTHON_TARGETS or RUBY_TARGETS all the time.


Has nothing to do with Gentoo or Portage. Blame Python developers. I can even give you a name of him...
Python is the language which should never leave the book pages.

Dorsai! wrote:

I dislike that portage's auxiliary tools are so fragmented and all have differently structured CLIs (like emerge, eix, equery, q, qlop, genlop, etc...), sometimes it's hard to remember which tool has the desired functionality.


Hm. I never remember anything about portage and it's tools.
I do have a series of scripts to accomplish 99% of tasks for almost all cases.
The only thing I try to remember is to push <ENTER> to run each of them.

Are there people who type "emerge" each time??? - I woul get mad if I do.
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