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2020 Poll - Which Desktop Environment uses Gentoo users ?
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Which Desktop Environment do you use ?
GNOME + OpenRC
3%
 3%  [ 6 ]
GNOME + Systemd
6%
 6%  [ 12 ]
KDE + OpenRC
35%
 35%  [ 61 ]
KDE + Systemd
6%
 6%  [ 11 ]
Xfce (OpenRC or Systemd)
13%
 13%  [ 24 ]
MATE (OpenRC or Systemd)
3%
 3%  [ 6 ]
LxQT (OpenRC or Systemd)
2%
 2%  [ 5 ]
LXDE (OpenRC or Systemd)
2%
 2%  [ 5 ]
Other Desktop Environment (Comment the topic)
2%
 2%  [ 5 ]
I use a Window Manager (Comment the topic)
22%
 22%  [ 39 ]
Total Votes : 174

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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@neyuru: consolekit is dead. If you are already using udev or eudev, then there is really no reason to not use elogind as well.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
@neyuru: consolekit is dead. If you are already using udev or eudev, then there is really no reason to not use elogind as well.

Any hints on how to transition from consolekit to elogind?
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

News Item will follow shortly.

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/1e04482926a395d62e677962c4585451
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
News Item will follow shortly.

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/1e04482926a395d62e677962c4585451

Awesome. Thank you mightily.
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Andy Figueroa
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/1e04482926a395d62e677962c4585451

Sounded so good to me I followed the migration instructions in an ssh shell on my local X86 server which also has both XFCE and LXDE installed with Lightdm. Went flawlessly. Results clean and neat.

I'll wash, rinse and repeat on a few other boxes as time allows.
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neyuru
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
@neyuru: consolekit is dead. If you are already using udev or eudev, then there is really no reason to not use elogind as well.


Thanks for the heads up!

I was hoping that because the xfce devs where maintaining CK2 it was in their best interest to keep it alive. As well as that xfce can be installed in non linux systems I thought that avoiding such divergence (by supporting another newly added linux-only package (systemd)) was a good reason to keep old and tried software alive... or... does this maintanership not belong to them? I mean, is it up to the distros the decision to support or not a specific DE with or without systemd? Or maybe there's something in systemd that it is undoubtedly the future of linux? Is it more efficient in doing it's thing? is it more portable? is it easier to maintain? does it contemplate new technologies that are really hard to impossible to implement with current software? what could it be?

I am not fond of patches. Of course I am not well versed in this topic but my feelings are that there are currently 2 main ways of using linux with a DE:

1) Use systemd
2) Use some ported systemd's packages to make the system work without systemd (notice the irony???).

I feel the second choice is "patching" and I'm not so sure about it. Not because I stand against systemd, I don't have anything against it but, if one uses quite a few systemd's packages already, why not use the whole thing? I mean, evolution is constant and in the future systemd WILL evolve. That means that maybe the CURRENT patches will break in the future. This is an added burden that I DO NOT WISH to any developers... From my point of view, this is extra work that could be avoided.

I loved the idea of not using (and by not using I mean no patch at all) systemd because the init system by default in Gentoo is openrc. I thought that if by using the "default settings" in a installation (the handbook does state this) I could increase my odds of resolving a conflict, not a matter of if but a matter of when. I know I know, someone would tell me: "you could do it if you wanted it" but hey, I am not a developer, I have enough technical skills to play with systems like this but not enough to maintain my very own profile/repository and to know that if in case of any problem I would not get any help at all. The prospect of allocating more time maintaining my system instead of doing work on it itches me a bit.

Now I am back to ground zero. Now, I think it is more sound to build a system WITH systemd... on Gentoo of course. Two more days of research come by. With the current situation of the human malware I got time to do it. But I need to resolve this now, in some indeterminate amount of weeks from now I will not have the time to keep experimenting :lol:
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The default session tracker for our desktop profiles until today was consolekit.
The default session tracker for our desktop profiles starting with tomorrow will be elogind. It just happens to do the thing it does the best right now. Where it was initially coming from, it does not matter much.
Neither we, nor you are going to apply patches for that, even Gnome has elogind support upstream.

Whatever decision you take is not terminal, anyway, I've had systems switching back and forth between openrc and systemd without ever performing a re-install. And right now, systemd is used by none of my systems.

Maybe you are just overthinking this?
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neyuru
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Neither we, nor you are going to apply patches for that, even Gnome has elogind support upstream.


That's good to know, every bit of information is appreciated for an end user like me.

asturm wrote:

Whatever decision you take is not terminal,


Agreed, nothing is written in stone (I changed my mind about installing Xfce with consolekit support)

asturm wrote:
I've had systems switching back and forth between openrc and systemd without ever performing a re-install. And right now, systemd is used by none of my systems.


Of course it can be done, the thing is my technical expertise is as far from you as my mom's is from me. :lol:


asturm wrote:

Maybe you are just overthinking this?


I will not deny that. But, that's the way I am. I like planning for stuff. I like to make the best decision with whatever information I have on me. To this date, I have not seen any definitive information (aka not convinced me) that the so called "patches" (my own very personal definition that might be totally wrong) are going to be any problem in the future. It is just an added layer of complexity... if systemd changes in the modules that pertain to these "patches" then the patches will have to change. Who doesn't say that in the future some new code anywhere in userspace or the kernel itself will not break, unintentionally, the modules that spawned the "patches"? not only systemd will have to be fixed, but also these "patches". From my point of view, I have the 2 choices I mentioned earlier... I tend to gravitate towards the simpler version.

That's what I like about the linux community and more specifically about Gentoo... the choice is there. Although many users tend to base their choice based on "desktop flashyness" (and I am not saying that is wrong) I want to base my decisions on practicality, robustness, engineering simplicity, hardware support, software tools for my scientific computing, long term support.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neyuru wrote:
To this date, I have not seen any definitive information (aka not convinced me) that the so called "patches" (my own very personal definition that might be totally wrong) are going to be any problem in the future. It is just an added layer of complexity... if systemd changes in the modules that pertain to these "patches" then the patches will have to change. Who doesn't say that in the future some new code anywhere in userspace or the kernel itself will not break, unintentionally, the modules that spawned the "patches"? not only systemd will have to be fixed, but also these "patches". From my point of view, I have the 2 choices I mentioned earlier... I tend to gravitate towards the simpler version.

Your apparent issues are way off base, and are likely to serve to only mislead others. It represents the replacement of an unmaintained consolekit, providing functions still needed for practical use of desktop systems. From a user's perspective, that's all one needs to know. Migration was easy and took less than 15 minutes on an 12 year old x86 system. Only nine ebuilds needed to be updated for the change in USE.

You don't need to be convinced. Consolekit was getting old and out-of-date without our help. Consider it the only game in town. Follow and read the links, and visit the elogind home page for more information: https://github.com/elogind/elogind
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neyuru
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:

Your apparent issues are way off base,


That's why I am here, to learn from experienced users :wink:

figueroa wrote:

, and are likely to serve to only mislead others.


well I don't know about that... who in their sane mind would trust anything a n00b has to say in his 4th week exploration of linux? (and Gentoo in top of that)

figueroa wrote:
It represents the replacement of an unmaintained consolekit, providing functions still needed for practical use of desktop systems. From a user's perspective, that's all one needs to know. Migration was easy and took less than 15 minutes on an 12 year old x86 system. Only nine ebuilds needed to be updated for the change in USE.


Fair enough. :wink:


figueroa wrote:

You don't need to be convinced. Consolekit was getting old and out-of-date without our help. Consider it the only game in town. Follow and read the links, and visit the elogind home page for more information: https://github.com/elogind/elogind


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying using openrc with elogind was harder to setup than systemd. Probably it is even the other way around! :?: Also, as can be read in my previous posts, I was totally fine (even convinced) with using openrc, even if that meant using an "old" piece of technology (consolekit, that I badly wanted to be activelly maintained). As the link you provided states:

Quote:
Elogind is the systemd project's "logind", extracted out to be a standalone daemon.


Is it a replacement for consolekit (and other stuff)? yes! Is it extracted from systemd? Also yes! So none of us are wrong (unless I am :lol: ). I think I'm getting what you're saying. elogind (along with other handfull of utilities extracted from systemd) is replacing consolekit and that is all an user all needs to know. Except, I do care. I need to be convinced. I will not take faith for an answer. If only someone debunked what I have said (the added conflict of patching) with technical and historical significancy and context, only then would I "beleive". Because I am ignorant and do not know better. But until then, if someone takes the time to do it, great! I will read and learn, if not, it is also OK! And until then I will try to learn and have fun in the process of installing this flavor of linux wich I like very much: Gentoo (with or without systemd).
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you are in a work or public environment, you don't need consolekit, elogind, or even pam. Standard Unix protections (permission groups) are fine for an individual or family situation.
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neyuru wrote:

You may want to see this thread: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8444272.html#8444272
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neyuru
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:

You may want to see this thread: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8444272.html#8444272


Interesting... I'll look into it :D
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Adarion
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to god, Gentoo leaves me the choice. :)

I'm usually on KDE/OpenRC on most of my machines, occasionally I also have XFCE4 (as fallback as well as main DE), once in a while I go with mate or E17/Enlightenment. Depends also on the machine. (Got several old ones here, too, like AMD Geode LX, Via C7 and the likes. I tend to chroot-compile those on a larger machine.)
All of them OpenRC, haven't really dared to dry systemD yet. ;)
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alamahant
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XFCE XFCE XFCE
:D
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cboldt
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fvwm

Fired up with startx
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ff11
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cboldt wrote:
Fired up with startx

In my installation, I have this:

  1. /etc/inittab call agetty to login: tty1-tty6
  2. No special rule for root, it will just get the console after login.
  3. On the user side i have:
    - Inside ~/.bash_profile:
    Code:
    if [[ -z $DISPLAY ]] && [[ $(tty) = /dev/tty1 ]]; then exec startx -- vt1; fi

    It will startx only for the user login on the tty1 (and will use vt1). On tty2-tty6 the user will get just the console.
    - Inside ~/.xinitrc i have:
    Code:
    if [[ "$DISPLAY" = ":0" ]] || [[ "$DISPLAY" = ":0.0" ]]; then
            exec startfluxbox
    else
            exec xterm
    fi

    It will start the fluxbox only if it's the first display, else the user will get only one xterm.

It work very well for me. But i wondering if i could say the same "Fired up with startx" (that seems to me that you type "startx" every time)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been playing around with wayfire. It does look promising. It's almost my daily driver. It has enough tiling support for my need with the simple-tiling plugin.

I will later incorporate stuff from lxde and xfce, so that it will me more of a DE and not only wm with menu and taskbar.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I DE hopped for a while. I loved Fluxbox and Openbox back when I had an old computer, but there was always so much manual configuration. I also liked XFCE on that computer, but it was a bit heavy. Now I just use KDE + OpenRC + startx and it works great. I still think about trying to find a super light (Openbox light), fully featured DE, but I always feel like I'll miss all of the comfy KDE features. Is LXQt there yet or is there some magical super light DE that works perfectly out of the box?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ff11 - my systems run mingetty on 6 consoles. console 1 has --noclear, consoles 2 through 5 are loginpause, and nothing happens there, but could if I wanted. console6 is an autologin of a regular user (me). So, after the occasional boot (uptime is hundreds of days except for the machine I carry for off-site work), I see a command line prompt at console6.

I do type startx manually.

I try to keep RAM clean (lib_users), so once in awhile, typically rebuild of bash, have to visit and exit the console to get every job in RAM to match the program on the hard drive.

consoles 9 through 12 are (duplicate) destination for some logging. console12 is authlog sort of thing, for example. Do I use it? No. It's just a neat trick and nearly free.

I have, from time to time, experimented with multiple x-sessions. console8 is held for a second xsession. Typically playing with different window manager. The family, before they grew up and moved out, was running XFCE, and I wanted to learn how to manipulate that for the inevitable "how do I?", without closing my usual workspace.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neyuru wrote:
Is it a replacement for consolekit (and other stuff)? yes! Is it extracted from systemd? Also yes! So none of us are wrong (unless I am :lol: ). I think I'm getting what you're saying. elogind (along with other handfull of utilities extracted from systemd) is replacing consolekit and that is all an user all needs to know. Except, I do care. I need to be convinced. I will not take faith for an answer. If only someone debunked what I have said (the added conflict of patching) with technical and historical significancy and context, only then would I "beleive". Because I am ignorant and do not know better. But until then, if someone takes the time to do it, great! I will read and learn, if not, it is also OK! And until then I will try to learn and have fun in the process of installing this flavor of linux wich I like very much: Gentoo (with or without systemd).

neyuru,

ConsoleKit is no rose:

https://davmac.wordpress.com/2015/09/03/d-bus-consolekit-policykit-turds-upon-turds-upon-turds/

Basically, the pragmatic approach for OpenRC users (like me, for example) was to switch from ConsoleKit to elogind. I am not a fan of systemd and I don't use it in Gentoo (although I do use it in Lubuntu because I don't have a choice in that distribution). I don't regard using OpenRC+elogind yet not wanting to use systemd as an inconsistent/hypocritical position. Basically elogind performs the same job as ConsoleKit did, but does not come with the remaining systemd baggage. It does the job it's supposed to do and does not imply a commitment to, or interest in, systemd, if those are your concerns or ideological mores.
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pa4wdh
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my desktop PC i'm using LXDE, it's basic and does everything it needs to do.
On my laptop i'm using Xfce now and i'm considering alternatives because it keeps pulling in *kits and other stuff i don't want. I really like the panel plugins (for network traffic, cpu load, calendar, etc.), so i'd like to have something similar in a new DE. Do you have any suggestions?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pa4wdh wrote:

On my laptop i'm using Xfce now and i'm considering alternatives because it keeps pulling in *kits and other stuff i don't want. I really like the panel plugins (for network traffic, cpu load, calendar, etc.), so i'd like to have something similar in a new DE. Do you have any suggestions?


I suggest you to check your USE flags with xfce4, I did
Code:
emerge -pv xfce4-meta

and saw no sign of webkit-gtk (if that is what you meant?). You can also choose to install specific xfce4 packages instead of the whole meta.

Enlightenment provides all the panel plugins you mentioned and depends on efl, so you don't have to fear webkit-gtk or qtwebengine being pulled in. Although for network plugin support you may have to use connman for now (networkmanager support is coming)
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pa4wdh
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm actually not really sure which packages i meant :) I just notice what with every update it's getting harder to keep it clean.

I'll check out Enlightenment, it looks good from the screenshots. And by the way, i was not clear about the networking thing. I don't mean a network manager (i absolutely hate them), but just a meter to show how much traffic is running through which interface.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:


ConsoleKit is no rose:

https://davmac.wordpress.com/2015/09/03/d-bus-consolekit-policykit-turds-upon-turds-upon-turds/


Nice blog post, thanks! Unfortunately I didn't understand it completely but hey, I asked for it! :lol: But I'm not intimidated, if I'll keep persevering maybe one day I could make an informed decision by having a rough understanding of these concepts.

In the final part of the given blog post, something did catch my eye: javascript. To avoid being off-topic, I think I'll start a new one about this.
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