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technotorpedo
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ HEY, you just wanted to make me google, no fair ! Messing around, apologies to people. Am not fighting against software diversity, nor trying to defecate on anyone's preferences or efforts. Do like runit, somewhat played with Openrc etc. Still devoting my time/effort into trying to learn how to optimize and use systemd though.

Anyone interested in an "I <heart> Lennart P" t-shirt of coffee mug ? Selling them puppies cheap. :D Errrrmmm, kidding dang it, don't shoot me !
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

technotorpedo,

technotorpedo wrote:
Anyone interested in an "I <heart> Lennart P" t-shirt of coffee mug ? Selling them puppies cheap. :D Errrrmmm, kidding dang it, don't shoot me !


I think you would get very few takers in Gentoo, even if you paid people to take them away.
Gentoo is about choice. Create your Gentoo install with any init system you want. By and large Gentoo users don't care.
Have several even.

systemd is about removing choice. Its not systemd that upsets people. Its free to exist as a choice.
However, systemd has the long term aim of removing choice.
That's to allow Red Hat to make it a wrapper around the kernel, so that they can sell binary code that would otherwise need to be GPL. That is, the long term aim is to take GNU/Linux closed source to obtain vendor lock in.
That business model has been tried before and all the companies that did are now out of business.

You use systemd if you want, just don't force it on others.

Why don't Google use systemd in Android or ChromeOS, they are both Linux?
They probably know at least as much about init systems as Red Hat.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't so much think they're going to take it over so they can turn it proprietary. Redhat demonstrated there's big money in open source, Google Inc knows it too. Tiny fraction of the time, ChromeOS left all desktop distro's in the dust, same for Android. They want the benefits of open source, want people contributing to it. Ends up being HUGE benefits to them vs trying to do it and pay for it all in-house. They didn't just give away ChromeOS/Android, they SOLD it for huge profits on compatible hardware and TONS of open source developers stepped up to help make it a mindblowingly diverse thing. Just about anything someone could want to do is available in the Android play store etc.

Remember a cool documentary long ago, called the Cathedral and the bizarre, it's about why/how open source development far outshines closed source. You've got 32 even highly skilled techies working on something closed off, they might even have issues communicating between compartments, xyz-owner wants to keep things controlled etc. So it ends up producing lower quality software at a much higher cost to whoever is developing it for sale. Verses just putting the source out there, keeping lose control and letting it grow. Plenty of free talent, unpaid wo/man-hours by volunteers, developers who want to get in on it and put out their own cool software to use on it too, for free. Unbeatable combo and Google Inc, Redhat others sit back and rake in the ca$h.

They Redhat(IBM) are not asking, to a great extent they're telling because they can. They have the position, the influence and the tech-talent. Let's review, audio/pulseaudio(RH), Xorg(soon Wayland, RH), systemd(init/RH), Gnome(RH and Kde and no shortage of others will readily follow suit with developments too.)All the kernel contribs, past, present, future (RH) and it goes on n on. Yep ... it's obvious they aren't playing around, are telling ... not asking, though don't think they're going to abandon open source for closed. They'd only be hurting themselves. However projs which go against the direction they set are on their own, yeah ... they don't get in line will be steam-rolled over. It's up to whoever has an interest in maintaining them who will have to put in the time, effort and bear any costs involved. Systemd is better in a bunch of ways. Vast majority of nixers using gnu/Linux for personal computing, majority of the most popular distro's and "based on's" are not troubling with spending limited resources to fight what's going to end up future improvements either. This stuff is just how it is, again ... whoever doesn't like it has options.

Google Inc has the resources, has the tech-talent to do whatever the hell they wish with ChromeOS, Android, any other tech arena they set sights on. Chrome web-browser is dominating the world now too. In some usecases using another init makes sense and for those for-profit cases, Google will hire people to do what's needed and it'll be trivial to them (those pros)to find a way to get it done quickly, effectively and at minimal costs. It's good to be the king, 20+ BILLION dollars a year buys A LOT of tech-talent, political influence, well it buys whatever someone or Corp with 20BIL bucks wants. For ChromeOS/Android, yep they want to keep some control and hands on the reins. Keep the money rolling in and also keep all those volunteers contributing to it too. I mean there's open source (ungoogled Android and custom ROM's), there's the Chromium browser and Chromium OS too. They don't want to lose the benefits of open source but they are going to continue making butt-loads of money too.

Whatever maneuvering they do, the software covered with GPL etc will still be readily available. They were to ever go too far, yep ... there will be a real reaction and efforts to balance things out. It's in their best interests to keep things going just as they are, works for majority of nixers too. No shortage of ways at all to leverage and make oodles of cash. Gaming on gnu/Linux and still untapped potential profit far and wide. When I stop playing around I have some open source ventures myself. Hope to make some serious cash out of it in future too. Oh well, time to shut it. Have a movie awaiting attention on YT. :D
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Quote:
slew is an
attempt to bridge the gap between the elegant foundation provided by s6/s6-rc
and an init/rc system that implements the main functionalities beneficial for
distributions.
Interesting. If s6 doesn't provide that, is s6 then primarily intended as kind of "library"? Lacking functionality distros are likely to want seems odd.
No, it is intended as mechanism. If you think about it, OpenRC is actually two parts: the openrc, openrc-run, rc-status, rc-update and /lib/rc/bin/* binaries, the /lib/rc/sh/* shell scripts, etc., i.e. the mechanism part, and the /etc/init.d/* and /etc/conf.d/* files, that tell OpenRC's mechanism what to do, and that the author of s6 calls "the policy". systemd's init system part is the same: you have the systemd and systemctl binaries, the generators, etc., and you have the /usr/lib/systemd/system/* unit files. In both cases, you have mechanism and policy in the same package.

Now, OpenRC is that way because it evolved from the rc subsystem of one concrete distribution (that happens to be ours), so necessarily contained policy already. What can other init systems do? You either do it the systemd way, i.e. also write the policy and then dictate it to your users, or you do nothing, and let projects like slew, 66, or ignite (from which Void's runit-based rc subsystem is derived) emerge to provide policy for specific targets, as they see fit.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

technotorpedo,

In case you didn't live through the death of the the closed source workstation vendors, have a read.

If history teaches us anything, its that we learn nothing from history. Red Hat/systemd is trying to make that mistake again.
You can see what happens to a monoculture in nature too.
The systemd monoculture, if it happens, is equally susceptible.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

technotorpedo wrote:
it's my view and belief that Lennart P must be a very qualified techie overall or he wouldn't be trusted with the projects he's been allowed to work on or head.

You are either very young or very naive. When you have twenty or thirty years of business experience you will know better.

I'll just leave you with a quote from a senior executive of a search firm that appeared in the Chicago Tribune newspaper.

"Basically you get hired because somebody likes you and you get fired because somebody doesn't like you. You would be surprised how little competence has to do with the process."
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/me just smiles :)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man again, think you're missing a lot of obvious stuff but am not here to banter back n forth. Talking about monoculture, Gentoo by nature is never, EVER, not ever going to be anything but a tiny minority of users, EVER. Probably some Ubuntu events like conventions or summin which have more people in attendence at any given time. If Gentoo ceased to exist this second, VAST MAJORITY of humanity wouldn't even notice, much less care. Again ... to me it's painfully obvious, a few 10,000's of neck-beards and which init or whatever other pieces of software they prefer is not of interest to very many people. Certainly not to Corps like Google Inc, Redhat(IBM) they aren't wanting to crush a distro which thinks compiling everything from source and spending 8months for someone (avg pc person)to get a working OS is something significant, Gentoo and similar stuff is of ZERO interest to them. It's not something with enough meaning to even bother thinking about. So talking about things from the view pt of monoculture, ya may want to broaden your views. The GPL was specifically established for exactly what is happening. Someone does their research, the folks who started it all are all on record saying as much. If there wasn't commercial interest, money to be made, gnu/Linux would be a hobby OS-platform used by 32,000 geeks world-wide.

Would never attract any attention from any meaningful amount of users, never have any OEM interest or support. Much less such parties actually starting to open doors and make efforts in expanding and increasing compatibility with gnu/Linux, no printers, no vidcards etc etc endless. There would've never been much of any hardware support at all. Oh no worries, out of the 780 qualified people, sure ... just code yaself up a driver which somewhat works with xyz-model printer and call it good. In other words there would be 5 nixers living in their grandma's basement's arguing about emacs vs vim. :D

Errrr, came out harsher than intended. Absolutely 110% true though. Corps with 10's of billions on the line really don't give a whit what xyz-nixer using all the software for free prefers, thinks and that's just the way it is. People need to learn and focus on the hard facts and the fact is yeppers, are TONS of megatech-Corps making tons of cash with open source and that shall continue onwards. Whoever is free to pursue whatever they wish though. I don't really care, emacs or vim, doesn't matter to me personally. Can already tell this is/was a mistake, don't have to participate to freely browse the Gentoo forum content. Arghhhhhhh !
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

technotorpedo wrote:
This, you don't get put in charge of something like systemd, by a 1billion plus a year in revenue technology giant at a Tech-corp, which government defense agencies contact and say hey, we need this nuclear/biological tipped missile to hit within 12 feet, please design it for us or figure out how to do it. [...]

Even billion-dollar projects may well be crap. PL/I and Boeing 737 Max easily come to mind. You know too little about the history.
Can you explain why systemd, having almost 2 order of magnitude more developers than s6/s6-rc, still cannot control its bug growth?
(No, there is no useful feature in systemd that cannot be implemented with s6/s6-rc. I will write a post about this in a few days.)

technotorpedo wrote:
[...] I'm using developments and improvements they're letting me have access to, not other way around. Again bottomline reality is that Gentoo, Void/Alpine etc are still niche things, a tiny userbase compared to Debian gnu/nix based ie: Ubuntu/Linux Mint, plenty of others. I wuv Debian (have no interest in any "based" on Debian) and am not spending tons of my time going against decisions they make, to end up with something that's no better, very likely inferior anyway.

The same can be said about Windows vs Linux. Why do you not simply use Windows is beyond me :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

technotorpedo wrote:
Certainly not to Corps like Google Inc, Redhat(IBM) they aren't wanting to crush a distro which thinks compiling everything from source and spending 8months for someone (avg pc person)to get a working OS is something significant, Gentoo and similar stuff is of ZERO interest to them. It's not something with enough meaning to even bother thinking about.

Confused, do Google not use portage for ChromeOS?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Proinsias wrote:
technotorpedo wrote:
Certainly not to Corps like Google Inc, Redhat(IBM) they aren't wanting to crush a distro which thinks compiling everything from source and spending 8months for someone (avg pc person)to get a working OS is something significant, Gentoo and similar stuff is of ZERO interest to them. It's not something with enough meaning to even bother thinking about.

Confused, do Google not use portage for ChromeOS?


Never heard that Chrome OS use Portage. Source?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portage_(software)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS#Architecture_2
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stoffepojken wrote:
Never heard that Chrome OS use Portage. Source?

http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/packages/portage
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fedeliallalinea wrote:
stoffepojken wrote:
Never heard that Chrome OS use Portage. Source?

http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/packages/portage


Thank you
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasperVector wrote:
Even billion-dollar projects may well be crap. PL/I and Boeing 737 Max easily come to mind.

Iridium and if we leave the private realm TFX

CasperVector wrote:
Can you explain why systemd, having almost 2 order of magnitude more developers than s6/s6-rc, still cannot control its bug growth?
There was an IBM study in the '50s that concluded that the bigger the codebase and the more developers who had a hand in it, the more likely that bugfixes would lead to more bugs. When a program got old enough and had been fixed enough the ratio of new bugs to bugs fixed exceeded 1.0 and bug fixes actually make the program more buggy.
Hence the Unix philosophy - small limited programs that do one thing and do it very well glued together by shell.
The very opposite of Microsoft and RedHat with their big impenetrable monolithic everything connected philosophy.

The best programs have fewer than a dozen developers.


Last edited by Tony0945 on Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't help it another very old saying (modified)jumps to mind and gotta say it. People were given 2 ears, 2 eyes and 2 hands but only 1 mouth for good reason. So that intelligent folks can listen, see and learn much more and use those hands to accomplish things vs devoting overmuch effort to running their face hole. Errr or in this case, misusing those two hands to substitute for said face-hole vs doing anything productive about all this circle-jerk, reality detached mental masturb nonsense. Ye gawds so much of tech is hard core fact, results, skill and experience. Either you know how it works or you don't. Not mystical, philosophical, abstract bs. Joined here thinking hey, bound to meet people with that realistic, let's look at this from a solid technical perspective, let's approach x-based on facts and proven scientific methodology and get a bunch of my computer is the only thing which will listen to me (gee wonder why)goobledegook.

Gonna take my own advice and stop typing. :D
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
There was an IBM study in the '50s that concluded that the bigger the codebase and the more developers who had a hand in it, the more likely that bugfixes would lead to more bugs. When a program got old enough and had been fixed enough the ratio of new bugs to bugs fixed exceeded 1.0 and bug fixes actually make the program more buggy.
Hence the Unix philosophy - small limited programs that do one thing and do it very well glued together by shell.
The very opposite of Microsoft and RedHat with their big impenetrable monolithic everything connected philosophy.
The best programs have fewer than a dozen developers.

Paul Graham and Laurent Bercot would certainly appreciate this study :)
(See also Sections 19-20 of UP2020 if you happen to feel interested :wink:)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

I had to read up FFX. In the UK it was know as the Widow Maker.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Tony0945,

I had to read up FFX. In the UK it was know as the Widow Maker.
:!:

In an electronics magazine in the '70s, I read about the crashing problem. It seems that they used some oddball 10 bit proprietary microprocessor.
During a violent maneuver, there was a sign rollover so that if the aircraft pitched down the correction signal sent it further down instead of up.
Not a good thing when running supersonic 500 feet above the ground!
Saw a film once (actual film!) of the F-111 flying supersonic at low altitude over some American southwest desert. Plane left a furrow in the sand as it flew.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GDH-gentoo wrote:
pjp wrote:
Quote:
slew is an
attempt to bridge the gap between the elegant foundation provided by s6/s6-rc
and an init/rc system that implements the main functionalities beneficial for
distributions.
Interesting. If s6 doesn't provide that, is s6 then primarily intended as kind of "library"? Lacking functionality distros are likely to want seems odd.
No, it is intended as mechanism. If you think about it, OpenRC is actually two parts: the openrc, openrc-run, rc-status, rc-update and /lib/rc/bin/* binaries, the /lib/rc/sh/* shell scripts, etc., i.e. the mechanism part, and the /etc/init.d/* and /etc/conf.d/* files, that tell OpenRC's mechanism what to do, and that the author of s6 calls "the policy". systemd's init system part is the same: you have the systemd and systemctl binaries, the generators, etc., and you have the /usr/lib/systemd/system/* unit files. In both cases, you have mechanism and policy in the same package.

Now, OpenRC is that way because it evolved from the rc subsystem of one concrete distribution (that happens to be ours), so necessarily contained policy already. What can other init systems do? You either do it the systemd way, i.e. also write the policy and then dictate it to your users, or you do nothing, and let projects like slew, 66, or ignite (from which Void's runit-based rc subsystem is derived) emerge to provide policy for specific targets, as they see fit.
I'm generally aware of the two components, but hadn't perceived a solution that didn't provide both parts. s6 not providing both compoents seems like a strange choice, as it then becomes a "burden" to choose that option and then find a compatible solution for the other half. I had previously decided to not try s6 for some reason (I don't recall why), so this is useful information. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
CasperVector wrote:
Even billion-dollar projects may well be crap. PL/I and Boeing 737 Max easily come to mind.

Iridium
The satellites? Iridium satphones work quite well if you're in a location that doesn't have any other means of external communication. I think the main issue with it as a consumer service was cost. They're still around, iridium dot com.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
[...] and then find a compatible solution for the other half.
You dont't find a solution, you make a compatible half that suits you, like the Obarun and Void people did. If you don't agree, you now understand half of the reasons why so many distributions are systemd-based these days. Free work! :)

(Half-joking, but you get the idea)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Tony0945 wrote:
CasperVector wrote:
Even billion-dollar projects may well be crap. PL/I and Boeing 737 Max easily come to mind.

Iridium
The satellites? Iridium satphones work quite well if you're in a location that doesn't have any other means of external communication. I think the main issue with it as a consumer service was cost. They're still around, iridium dot com.

My former employer made a lot of money supplying programmers so it wasn't entirely a waste. My memory is that the project was dropped. apparently it was resurrected.

To quote my former VP:
Quote:
Iridium let's one call the London stock exchange from the Amazon basin. The problem is that no one in the Amazon basin wants to call the London stock exchange.
Everyone that wants to is in a place like New York City or Paris or Frankfort and just picks up an ordinary phone
Nowadays, of course, people just use an ordinary cellphone instead of the clunky briefcase sized Iridium phone.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
My memory is that the project was dropped. apparently it was resurrected.

To quote my former VP:
Quote:
Iridium let's one call the London stock exchange from the Amazon basin. The problem is that no one in the Amazon basin wants to call the London stock exchange.
Everyone that wants to is in a place like New York City or Paris or Frankfort and just picks up an ordinary phone
Phone calls from the Amazon basin to a stock exchange is obviously not a business case, so I'm presuming that was more of a marketing style comment (Verizon's "can you hear me now" sort of thing).

Tony0945 wrote:
Nowadays, of course, people just use an ordinary cellphone instead of the clunky briefcase sized Iridium phone.
If you have cell service in your location, or will within a short amount of time. Of course, that's not all situations as the service still exists. And I'm sure it isn't funded by adventure seekers. But this is waaaay off topic, so I'll leave it at that.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GDH-gentoo wrote:
pjp wrote:
[...] and then find a compatible solution for the other half.
You dont't find a solution, you make a compatible half that suits you, like the Obarun and Void people did. If you don't agree, you now understand half of the reasons why so many distributions are systemd-based these days. Free work! :)

(Half-joking, but you get the idea)
Other "complete" solutions exist, so that makes s6 questionable outside of academic pursuits. Concerning the "two halves" issue, I don't think that itself warranted creation of systemd (that LP(?) thought other solutions were inadequate is a different matter). I'm hoping to test Slackware's arrangement by the end of the year.
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