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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
And as far as *logind/*kit, I don't need or use them as I don't use a DM, I boot to command line and use startx, so anything that requires those pieces of software aren't necessary on my system. I don't run a multi-user system.

Xdm works just fine without them too. I do run multi-user systems but only one at a time. Users can arrange their desktops however they want, hve their own e-mail and browser profiles, indeed have their own desktop manager as I added a menu to xdm following a 1990 Linux Journal article.

Pam is not needed either. I looked at logs on my dual boot system going back to 2004 and only one seat was ever occupied. These are home systems not office systems.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
And as far as *logind/*kit, I don't need or use them as I don't use a DM, I boot to command line and use startx, so anything that requires those pieces of software aren't necessary on my system. I don't run a multi-user system.

Xdm works just fine without them too. I do run multi-user systems but only one at a time. Users can arrange their desktops however they want, hve their own e-mail and browser profiles, indeed have their own desktop manager as I added a menu to xdm following a 1990 Linux Journal article.

Pam is not needed either. I looked at logs on my dual boot system going back to 2004 and only one seat was ever occupied. These are home systems not office systems.


x11-misc/slim is the DM that I actually use (despite being caught playing around with sddm). It works fine without pam and without consolekit. And it allows reliable reboot and shutdown from the DM (set the proper command line in /etc/slim.conf, enter reboot or halt command as the login and give the root password to prove you're authorized to reboot this machine).

slim is another one of those projects that is "dead" because it needs no further changes and now works reliably and correctly.

I suspect that the most reliable and productive desktop environment on linux or bsd systems would utilize only software from "dead" projects. :D
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Gatsby
Thank you for sharing
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fourth option has appeared on the Debian GR, and well its what Linux should be about


https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002#proposerd


So debian shall vote on

Choice 1: Affirm Init Diversity
Choice 2: systemd but we Support Exploring Alternatives
Choice 3: Focus on systemd for Init System and Other Facilities
Choice 4: Support non-systemd systems, without blocking progress
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
@Gatsby
Thank you for sharing

You are welcome. :D
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Latest, Naib

Code:
The eight options they're voting on:

    Choice 1: F: Focus on systemd

    Choice 2: B: Systemd but we support exploring alternatives

    Choice 3: A: Support for multiple init systems is Important

    Choice 4: D: Support non-systemd systems, without blocking progress

    Choice 5: H: Support portability, without blocking progress

    Choice 6: E: Support for multiple init systems is Required

    Choice 7: G: Support portability and multiple implementations

    Choice 8: Further Discussion

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Latest, Naib
The eight options they're voting on: [...]

I wonder if it would be acceptable for me to make a dedicated post on this forum about why there are very few reasons to use systemd.
The post would be not Gentoo-specific at all, and will (concisely) involve quite a lot about s6/s6-rc and other daemontools-ish init/rc systems.
I do not intend to persuade people here to migrate, but the more people know about superior alternatives, the less effective the systemd propaganda will be.
(I meant it seriously when writing "superior": I have not yet seen any convincing refutation to my points after publishing this or saying this.)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasperVector,

Its in order for you to try.

Post in Gentoo Chat or Other Things Gentoo and we can see how it develops.
The mods can lock it on move it once we see how the topic develops.
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GDH-gentoo
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Latest, Naib
Latest, and final. Debian developers vote now, until December 27th.
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Proinsias
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasperVector wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Latest, Naib
The eight options they're voting on: [...]

I wonder if it would be acceptable for me to make a dedicated post on this forum about why there are very few reasons to use systemd.
The post would be not Gentoo-specific at all, and will (concisely) involve quite a lot about s6/s6-rc and other daemontools-ish init/rc systems.
I do not intend to persuade people here to migrate, but the more people know about superior alternatives, the less effective the systemd propaganda will be.
(I meant it seriously when writing "superior": I have not yet seen any convincing refutation to my points after publishing this or saying this.)

Worst case scenario is it ends up in off the wall or locked, but I think that's possible with any discussion involving systemd.

s6/s6-rc is interesting but involves fighting with the default system plumbing on any distro I'm aware of. I've had a good chance to play with systemd, openrc & runit mainly due to other people maintaining distributions which integrate them well. I've been keeping an eye out for a distro which can boot into a shiny supported s6/s6-rc system for me to play with for a few years....maybe Adélie?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Proinsias wrote:
s6/s6-rc is interesting but involves fighting with the default system plumbing on any distro I'm aware of.
For binary-based distributions. Source-based ones have it easier, but yeah, integration work is needed.
Proinsias wrote:
I've been keeping an eye out for a distro which can boot into a shiny supported s6/s6-rc system for me to play with for a few years....maybe Adélie?
Not yet. Currently it offers a choice between sysvint + s6 + OpenRC, or s6 + s6-linux-init + OpenRC (i.e., no s6-rc).

Supposedly Obarun, an Arch derivative, is s6 + s6-rc-based, with a homegrown front-end (66).
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
CasperVector,

Its in order for you to try.

Post in Gentoo Chat or Other Things Gentoo and we can see how it develops.
The mods can lock it on move it once we see how the topic develops.

Thanks then. I will post it in a few days.
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CasperVector
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Proinsias wrote:
s6/s6-rc is interesting but involves fighting with the default system plumbing on any distro I'm aware of. I've had a good chance to play with systemd, openrc & runit mainly due to other people maintaining distributions which integrate them well. I've been keeping an eye out for a distro which can boot into a shiny supported s6/s6-rc system for me to play with for a few years....maybe Adélie?

As has just been said by GDH-gentoo, you may consider trying Obarun. My own frontend, slew, works reliably on my Void desktop and Alpine servers.
I once also easily made a small slew demo using Ubuntu (with eudev lifted from Devuan), but the slew repository structure was later changed to facilitate packaging.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
slew is an
attempt to bridge the gap between the elegant foundation provided by s6/s6-rc
and an init/rc system that implements the main functionalities beneficial for
distributions.
Interesting. If s6 doesn't provide that, is s6 then primarily intended as kind of "library"? Lacking functionality distros are likely to want seems odd.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am fully embracing systemd, never had an issue with it or pulseaudio, am not going to swim against the current = upstream unless there's really good reason. Spent mucho time looking over systemd vs SysV in terms of technical merits, mucho time debunking the anti-systemd people's FUD to my own satisfaction too of course. Oops on topic, it's my view and belief that Lennart P must be a very qualified techie overall or he wouldn't be trusted with the projects he's been allowed to work on or head. I don't blame him for not stopping and debating his every move/choice, in particular when it's likely with many people who aren't in his league or many gnu/Linux users now aren't even qualified to play in the minor league or kiddie league etc. He's been given x-task, x-responsibility and that's what the guy is focused on. It's not as portable and gnu/Linux specific ? Yep ... it's intended for gnu/Linux, others want to utilize any of it, they can do the work involved in porting or reworking it.

Maybe he should submit bug reports but in my view he's human like the rest of us, he's focused on developing his way of doing it and probably amused or critical of people trying to avert those efforts, systemd-shim's etc etc blahblah. That would be taking away from his time to focus on what he clearly thinks is moving the wrong direction. So bottom line reasonably enough he likely doesn't care what problems or borkage the people associated with those projs are inflicting upon themselves, nor the users of those projs either. So many used SysV an init developed, maintained and paid for by people they don't know forever, now they're bucking an improved init system (replacement init in gnu/Linux) again being developed, maintained and paid for by upstream too. Though poor LP, the guy is getting death threats by people who don't even have a general clue what an init is/does. Because he was made head-dev of systemd.

Think falling out of step with upstream in something like the default init is bound to have serious issues for users. As the upstream (people who have the skill, the position, pay for it and others who heed them, kernel.org onto every dang thing else) accept systemd is the new default and begin actively developing and supporting it as such. Personally of course, it's no skin offa my anything which init or other software given gnu/Linux users want to use. It's each persons choice, their preferences and hardware. Though would advise making the best and not dwelling in the past unless it's for good reason, which would have to mean reason(s) based on solid technical data. Not ohhhhhh, I don't think, don't want ... what about init diversity, unix philosopy violations etc etc, endless other FUD and nonsense I've seen clueless folks spouting related to systemd.

Am also confident anyone familiar enough with the gnu/Linux OS-platform to be running a Gentoo install is perfectly capable of knowing how and what'd be involved in using whatever alternatives they prefer, picking a good alternate approach out of what's available. In this I'm taking the path of least resistance and just learning about systemd. How to tweak/control and use the dang thing to the best of my abilities. Etc.

Pointless 2 cents fellow nixers. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Interesting. If s6 doesn't provide that, is s6 then primarily intended as kind of "library"? Lacking functionality distros are likely to want seems odd.


slew manual wrote:
In addition to the functionalities provided by s6/s6-rc, distributions often
want the following features in an init/rc framework:
* (Nearly) ready-for-use definitions for longruns and oneshots.
* Instanced supervision (eg. `dhcpc.eth0' / `dhcpc.wlan0').
* Optional dependencies (like those in [1]).
* Package-specific automatic manipulation of definitions.

While there are projects that provide longrun definitions, oneshots and
service dependencies are largely unconsidered; and while some of them (eg.
supervision-scripts [2]) provide templates for `./run' scripts, we also want to
be able to generate definitions for logging services as well as corresponding
`./producer-for' / `./consumer-for' files in an automated way.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

technotorpedo wrote:
Spent mucho time looking over systemd vs SysV in terms of technical merits, mucho time debunking the anti-systemd people's FUD to my own satisfaction too of course. [...] Not ohhhhhh, I don't think, don't want ... what about init diversity, unix philosopy violations etc etc, endless other FUD and nonsense I've seen clueless folks spouting related to systemd.

We are quite clueful actually. You do not seem to understand superior alternatives like s6, nosh, runit etc before mentioning "init diversity".
Sorry if this seems rude, but it appears that you do not really understand the Unix philosophy, either.

technotorpedo wrote:
Oops on topic, it's my view and belief that Lennart P must be a very qualified techie overall or he wouldn't be trusted with the projects he's been allowed to work on or head. [...] Though poor LP, the guy is getting death threats by people who don't even have a general clue what an init is/does. Because he was made head-dev of systemd.

LP is not quite a competent programmer. Although I do not commend death threats, he is indeed quite a jerk.

technotorpedo wrote:
Think falling out of step with upstream in something like the default init is bound to have serious issues for users. As the upstream (people who have the skill, the position, pay for it and others who heed them, kernel.org onto every dang thing else) accept systemd is the new default and begin actively developing and supporting it as such. [...]

Which upstream? Debian, Arch, RedHat etc are not the only upstreams.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

technotorpedo wrote:
*snip*

Your point? I'm not going to pick through a wall of passive-voice smug txtspeak to find one. You don't get to place that kind of demand on other people's attention.
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technotorpedo
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ No worries, who's asking you to read my posts ? Lol ... scroll or put me on ignore, problem solved. :D

The OP about this is Lennart is saying xyz. Giving some of my thoughts on the topic and what's involved in general about things. Were in his shoes, would do the same, oh ... ya don't like systemd eh ? Having problems and shooting yaself in the foot eh ? GOOD, screw you people ! Have fun maintaining all this when upstream and everybody else really gear up and accept the obvious, systemd is the new default init in gnu/Linux, PERIOD !!! Not sure what's hard to understand or what's left to debate, shrugs.

Ps, ya know what they say, those who can do (fork) or find effective work arounds etc. Those who can't and/or don't want to endlessly bytch and gripe. :)


Last edited by technotorpedo on Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

technotorpedo,

technotorpedo wrote:
Oops on topic, it's my view and belief that Lennart P must be a very qualified techie

Lets not discuss beliefs. There is no requirement for beliefs to be based on fact.
As you fail to cite any supporting facts, that's enough said.

Oh, I'll remind you of the Peter Principle and leave you with the thought that things are not always what the appear to be.
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technotorpedo
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep you say in your beliefs, beliefs have no merit. Produce something technical or substantial yourself before you post such drivel ? That I should produce all the tons of data which show systemd is technically as good, honestly better than sysV, nope do your own homework. Produce the again, readily available facts that debunk much of the FUD the anti-systemd peeps cite, the oh Linus Torvald said this, you look it up, not what he said at all. In fact guy says I'm using systemd on my own personal computers etc. Nope ... again, do your own research ... again. :D

Bottom-line Redhat(IBM) do have a massive amount of influence over upstream, have for a LONG TIME. Ibm did not just spend 34BILLION bucks to coddle to endusers, who benefit from and use the software way down-stream for free. Systemd is the new gnu/Linux init, the people with the cash and the top-level techies on their payroll are running the show. Fork something, work around it to whoever persons satisfaction, great ... irrelevant to me but all the whining, rending of clothes, pointless griping is going to get people really far.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

technotorpedo wrote:
^ No worries, who's asking you to read my posts ? Lol ... scroll or put me on ignore, problem solved. :D

Then why did you not ignore our posts? :roll:

technotorpedo wrote:
The OP about this is Lennart is saying xyz. Giving some of my thoughts on the topic and what's involved in general about things. Were in his shoes, would do the same, oh ...

Do you know that the authors of s6, nosh, runit etc are also "in his shoes", and do the job much better?

technotorpedo wrote:
ya don't like systemd eh ? Having problems and shooting yaself in the foot eh ? GOOD, screw you people ! Have fun maintaining all this when upstream and everybody else really gear up and accept the obvious

Let me remind you of some interesting facts, dear troll:
Unix Philosophy 2020 wrote:
The number of unresolved bugs with systemd grows incessantly over time, still without any sign of leveling off (let alone sustainably decreasing). In comparison, with s6/s6-rc and related packages, the fix for any bug (there have been very few) almost always arrives within one week of the bug report, and even if we also count other projects with functionalities emulated by systemd, the number of bugs still does not grow in systemd's fashion.


technotorpedo wrote:
systemd is the new default init in gnu/Linux, PERIOD !!! Not sure what's hard to understand or what's left to debate, shrugs.

"What's hard to understand" is the lack of justification for "systemd is the new default init in gnu/Linux, PERIOD !!!".
Hint: Debian, Arch, RedHat etc do not really represent Linux. Do you know Alpine BusyBox/musl/Linux which is very popular for containers?
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technotorpedo
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oops on topic, it's my view and belief that Lennart P must be a very qualified techie


This, you don't get put in charge of something like systemd, by a 1billion plus a year in revenue technology giant at a Tech-corp, which government defense agencies contact and say hey, we need this nuclear/biological tipped missile to hit within 12 feet, please design it for us or figure out how to do it. Please implement the software which runs our nuclear sub-fleet etc, by being a moron. Redhat has gifted techies already ear-marked before they get out of the some of the worlds premiere tech-schools. They are already watching and actively recruiting those people for their obvious talent and skills.

So dear Lennart, didn't just walk in off the street and say yeah, I hear you's got a job as head-dev deploying a new init for gnu/Linux. Oh yeah and this major audio = pulseaudio thing, I've got a few rough ideas on it. Yeah ... I just started running Ubuntu 14 months ago. Redhat recruiter: SURE YOU'RE HIRED BUD !!! :D Get real people, just saying.

ps, yes there are alternatives, those people, those projs are free to do whatever they please. For the overwhelming majority it's systemd and shall progressively move further towards systemd. Whoever wants to or is capable is fully within rights to go another way. That goes w/o even saying, though yes ... that involves work, expense and skills and dealing with whatever comes downstream.

ps2. :) They also say ... Lead/follow or get the F out of the way(keep whining, crying and griping.) It's still not going to change the facts and the realities of what's happening. What's coming ... again, FOR ME, I'm going to make the best of it, according to my own abilities. If I have heart set on using another init, then I'll review the docs/data and make it work as well as possible.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah am not getting off on the best start here. Was just responding to what I viewed as a snooty response to something I'd posted in kind. Not trying to take away from whatever others prefer or whatever any projs are doing. Think mostly we're in agreement just viewing things based on different metrics. I don't so much like the Tech-giants clearly having taken over much of gnu/Linux but don't see much I can do about it either. Also as an enduser, even in a production environment in this type of thing I don't want to go against them. I'm using developments and improvements they're letting me have access to, not other way around. Again bottomline reality is that Gentoo, Void/Alpine etc are still niche things, a tiny userbase compared to Debian gnu/nix based ie: Ubuntu/Linux Mint, plenty of others. I wuv Debian ( have no interest in any "based" on Debian)and am not spending tons of my time going against decisions they make, to end up with something that's no better, very likely inferior anyway.

Sheesh ChromeOS is supposed to have more users now, than all the Nix distro's combined, by a big margin, Android is dominating the world on mobile etc etc. Just the way it is, even if I could ( honestly can't) fork to any reasonable extent, I don't want to even try in this. My OS blazes on an ancient laptop, it'd be lightning speed on better spec hardware. So honestly I have no motivation to go against what upstream (Debian) is doing and upstream of them are doing. Am happy with how things are and will do the best I can with what I have to work with if at some future point I feel otherwise.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

technotorpedo,

The French have a wonderful saying ...
Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr wrote:
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

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