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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I remember when MS coexisted with other software too

I don't. Microsoft has been raising the unemployment rate since the 80s.


I remember ibm dos, cpm dos, and as far as apps, several word processors until office finally got enough market share, same with several other categories of software.
Heck I remember when windows wasn't tied to dos and you could swap out window managers, kind of like throwing away gnome for kde.

MS was more than happy for all of them to coexist ... until they gained enough market share with their own offerings, then they made sure the others didn't work so well, ie, closely tied all their software together and kept changing the interfaces, kind of what systemd was doing for a while (pre eudev/elogind)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasperVector wrote:
Alpine, Artix, Void etc also await your exploration :)
I ran Artix for a while, it was kinda cool, but the level of random breakage and update micromanagement wasn't at all suitable for a daily-driver. I run Devuan on my servers, primarily because unattended upgrades "just work", and those machines are headless.
Alpine is a bit niche for my taste, and musl isn't really my thing. Void looks very interesting, but package availability is still a little thin and it's a totally new package format to learn if I were to build my own. Ebuilds are just easier, so here I am.

Perhaps I should have said "last well-known and well-established bastion of sanity". I have nothing against new small-userbase distros at all, but running them comes with it's own set of problems - problems I'm too old and too set in my ways to deal with right now.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve_v wrote:
Perhaps I should have said "last well-known and well-established bastion of sanity". I have nothing against new small-userbase distros at all, but running them comes with it's own set of problems - problems I'm too old and too set in my ways to deal with right now.

Yes, as long as one's choice does not interfere with other people's choice, it is mostly a matter of taste, even if the choice is Windows :)
I migrated to Alpine on servers, and Void on the desktop, but still stay on Gentoo forums because the environment here is nice and technically adept.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
asturm wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
https://github.com/KDE/systemd-kcm

...that's... an unmaintained systemd configuration UI.

Yes, but they're going to pull it into System Settings itself, aren't they?

Surely you mean a "systemd-kde"; why stop at configuration when you can reimplement the entire desktop?
I suppose that would need rewriting KDE in Javascript rather than use those insecure Qt libraries ;-)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:44 pm    Post subject: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Goverp wrote:
I suppose that would need rewriting KDE in Javascript rather than use those insecure Qt libraries ;-)

"It has begun!" (QML)

Seriously though, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they (systemd) would take over a desktop environment, too, but well, didn't they already do that with GNOME? Sort of, not really, but yeah...

I do hope KDE and others will not commit to the same mistake(s).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now, KDE and GNOME (AFAIK) only depend on the login component of systemd.

Though bugs, from debian, :roll: complain that elogind is not a complete replacement for systemd and are using that as an excuse to try and get rid of elogind (my take on it) as an alternative login manager. Though from some of the complaints in the bugs, what they're trying to do is ... well ... to put it bluntly stupid or they're just using these complaints as a method of bolstering the use of systemd as the only true debian way.

It all boils down to what was said earlier, systemd is an MS style cancer, embrace, extend ... and then extinguish the competition.

Now, whether IBM agrees with what RH is doing, or is even paying attention to it, I don't know.
I do know that for many years IBM was partners with MS and then basically got the shaft from them and weren't happy about it, so I'm sure they would like to one up MS.

Although I remember when IBM was the big bad 800 lb gorilla in the room, and trampled the competition.

I guess all this was inevitable when certain parties, so badly wanted linux to be the next computer desktop ... and here we are.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve_v wrote:
Another day, another snipe at Gentoo, the only well-known distro that hasn't jumped on the systemd bandwagon.
Void.

EDIT:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Right now, KDE and GNOME (AFAIK) only depend on the login component of systemd.
KDE too? :(
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Now, whether IBM agrees with what RH is doing, or is even paying attention to it, I don't know.
I do know that for many years IBM was partners with MS and then basically got the shaft from them and weren't happy about it, so I'm sure they would like to one up MS.
I've wondered as to what possible affect IBM might have on RH as well...very hard to say. It's important to remember that the main, if not only, reason they bought RH was about things related to "the cloud", which means having a server OS is a priority. There's at least a chance that someone will realize that systemd is especially insane for a server OS, and just calling your OS an "Enterprise Server" doesn't fix that. Wishful thinking I suppose.

Tom


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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca, I should have checked before I posted, I was going on (obviously faulty) memory. :oops:

KDE does allow use of consolekit instead of *logind, at the moment, but I'm not too sure of the longevity of consolekit.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
KDE does allow use of consolekit instead of *logind, at the moment, but I'm not too sure of the longevity of consolekit.

But also because consolekit2 has no update for two years.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:


EDIT:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Right now, KDE and GNOME (AFAIK) only depend on the login component of systemd.
KDE too? :(

With slightly modified ebuilds of kde-frameworks/solid and kde-plasma/powerdevil in a local repository kde5 (plasma5) is running on my gentoo systems without consolekit, elogind or systemd.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Now, whether IBM agrees with what RH is doing, or is even paying attention to it, I don't know.
I do know that for many years IBM was partners with MS and then basically got the shaft from them and weren't happy about it, so I'm sure they would like to one up MS.
I've wondered as to what possible affect IBM might have on RH as well...very hard to say. It's important to remember that the main, if not only, reason they bought RH was about things related to "the cloud", which means having a server OS is a priority. There's at least a chance that someone will realize that systemd is especially insane for a server OS, and just calling your OS an "Enterprise Server" doesn't fix that. Wishful thinking I suppose.

Tom


Back when I was in IBM, I know that the server guys most definitely knew what reliability was all about, and how to build those '9's into the system. I know nothing first-hand since being sold several years ago. I'm also not and never have been any sort of spokesman or had any official role of that sort, other than one recruiting trip to my old alma mater.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Zucca, I should have checked before I posted, I was going on (obviously faulty) memory. :oops:

KDE does allow use of consolekit instead of *logind, at the moment, but I'm not too sure of the longevity of consolekit.


I did two installs recently with KDE, one with consolekit2 and one with elogind. With consolekit2 the login manager sddm works as expected, allowing shutdown and reboot. With elogind shutdown and reboot are dysfunctional. Curious I pulled down the source codes for consolekit2 and elogind. I expected the code for elogind to be an up-to-date version of consolekit but using cgroups2, but I felt a bit disoriented since the code for elogind is re-arranged and massively bigger -- so I ran sloccount on the two source directories to get a feel for the magnitude of the difference:

Code:

cd ConsoleKit2/src
sloccount

Totals grouped by language (dominant language first):
ansic:        17549 (96.74%)
python:         585 (3.22%)
sh:               7 (0.04%)

Code:

cd elogind/src
sloccount

Totals grouped by language (dominant language first):
ansic:       109753 (99.95%)
awk:             29 (0.03%)
python:          21 (0.02%)
sh:               7 (0.01%)

elogind has grown to be 600% more code than consolekit2 and yet consolekit2 works with sddm and elogind does not work (to properly grant shutdown/reboot permission). I'll stick to consolekit2 for now since that's what I also use in FreeBSD and OpenBSD (where it also works properly). I'd love to understand what's going on here. It almost looks like the "unmaintained" code continues to work correctly and the systemd code keeps getting changed but never meets spec (spec?). Reminds me of TeX, which was last updated in 2014! At version 3.14159265 it fulfills its spec and needs no re-works. Maybe consolekit2 fulfills its spec?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatsby wrote:

With slightly modified ebuilds of kde-frameworks/solid and kde-plasma/powerdevil in a local repository kde5 (plasma5) is running on my gentoo systems without consolekit, elogind or systemd.


That's what I want to do! A few years ago I ran KDE4 on Gentoo without that 18,000 (consolekit) or 110,000 (elogind) or 400,000 (systemd) lines of code that isn't missed when removed. I really liked my old simplified Gentoo KDE4 (-consolekit -policykit -udisks). It was very smooth and reliable. I'd like to make my new KDE Plasma into a sleek "single seater". Is there anything tricky that I won't see by just examining the ebuilds you mentioned?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sitquietly wrote:
so I ran sloccount on the two source directories to get a feel for the magnitude of the difference
Whoa!

Now I'm wondering if it was easier to make ck2 to work with current gnome too (even if I really don't care about gnome) rather than to trying to keep "up-to-date" with systemd-logind with elogind.

Also someone mentioned we should have an alternative init system which can use systemd service -files. I think It's a good idea. Although nosh already kinda does that.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sitquietly wrote:
With consolekit2 the login manager sddm works as expected, allowing shutdown and reboot. With elogind shutdown and reboot are dysfunctional.

It works just fine when you put elogind in boot runlevel and don't rely on socket activation...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatsby wrote:

With slightly modified ebuilds of kde-frameworks/solid and kde-plasma/powerdevil in a local repository kde5 (plasma5) is running on my gentoo systems without consolekit, elogind or systemd.

Can you share your modified ebuilds?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasperVector wrote:
as long as one's choice does not interfere with other people's choice
This is exactly my problem with systemd, Redhat & co. The invasive all-consuming design choices and aggressive "marketing" - i.e. "nudging" gnome to go systemd only, sniping at Gentoo, etc. Do interfere with other people's choices.

Were the systemd developers making any effort to maintain compatibility with existing userland infrastructure and non-Linux unices such as BSD, or designing their software in a way that allows breaking out components into standalone services without undue pain, I'd take the live-and-let-live approach.
They're not. They're aggressively pushing systemd as the only choice, claiming modularity while ensuring you can't run components alone, and relentlessly bagging anyone who disagrees with them.

Zucca wrote:
Void.
I see it, I'm just not sure I want to run a bleeding-edge small-userbase distro right now - one that lacks packages for a fair number of things I want at that. Might give it a spin when I get around to assembling the spare desktop I have laying around.

Zucca wrote:
KDE too? :(
Pretty sure KDE5/Plasma requires a logind implementation to work properly. At least it did last time I played with it on Devuan and Artix. Works fine with elogind of course.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
sitquietly wrote:
With consolekit2 the login manager sddm works as expected, allowing shutdown and reboot. With elogind shutdown and reboot are dysfunctional.

It works just fine when you put elogind in boot runlevel and don't rely on socket activation...


Thank you, you are absolutely correct. You guessed correctly that I had put elogind in the default runlevel as I had always done with consolekit. After restoring elogind to this system and putting elogind in the boot runlevel sddm is working properly with elogind (as it also does with consolekit in the default runlevel). (by the way, lxdm seemed to be ok with elogind in the default runlevel).

I'm typing this from my new OpenRC KDE Plasma Science intallation using elogind. This is a nice option to have available because I wanted to test some gnome stuff that requires elogind.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve_v wrote:
Pretty sure KDE Plasma requires a logind implementation to work properly.

No. There are some strange papercuts with consolekit that no one is going to fix anymore, but there's support for it, in upstream code.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sitquietly wrote:
Gatsby wrote:

With slightly modified ebuilds of kde-frameworks/solid and kde-plasma/powerdevil in a local repository kde5 (plasma5) is running on my gentoo systems without consolekit, elogind or systemd.


That's what I want to do! A few years ago I ran KDE4 on Gentoo without that 18,000 (consolekit) or 110,000 (elogind) or 400,000 (systemd) lines of code that isn't missed when removed. I really liked my old simplified Gentoo KDE4 (-consolekit -policykit -udisks). It was very smooth and reliable. I'd like to make my new KDE Plasma into a sleek "single seater". Is there anything tricky that I won't see by just examining the ebuilds you mentioned?

No, it is quite easy. I removed the consolekit, upower and udisks2 dependencies from mentioned ebuilds. The login manager sddm works as expected, only shutdown and reboot are dysfunctional.
But since I don't need a seat manager, it is no discomfort for me to shutdown and reboot conventionally with shutdown/reboot.

proteusx wrote:
Can you share your modified ebuilds?

Here they are:
Code:
gcomp ~ # diff -u /usr/portage/kde-frameworks/solid/solid-5.64.0-r1.ebuild /usr/local/portage/kde-frameworks/solid/solid-5.64.0-r1.ebuild
--- /usr/portage/kde-frameworks/solid/solid-5.64.0-r1.ebuild    2019-11-12 23:40:02.000000000 +0100
+++ /usr/local/portage/kde-frameworks/solid/solid-5.64.0-r1.ebuild      2019-11-13 18:12:47.781659930 +0100
@@ -20,14 +20,13 @@
        >=dev-qt/qtdeclarative-${QTMIN}:5
        >=dev-qt/qtwidgets-${QTMIN}:5
        >=dev-qt/qtxml-${QTMIN}:5
-       sys-fs/udisks:2
        virtual/libudev:=
 "
 DEPEND="${RDEPEND}
        test? ( >=dev-qt/qtconcurrent-${QTMIN}:5 )
 "
 
-PATCHES=( "${FILESDIR}/${P}-udisks2-media-change-detection.patch" )
+#PATCHES=( "${FILESDIR}/${P}-udisks2-media-change-detection.patch" )
 
 pkg_postinst() {
        ecm_pkg_postinst


Code:
gcomp ~ # diff -u /usr/portage/kde-plasma/powerdevil/powerdevil-5.17.3.ebuild /usr/local/portage/kde-plasma/powerdevil/powerdevil-5.17.3.ebuild
--- /usr/portage/kde-plasma/powerdevil/powerdevil-5.17.3.ebuild 2019-11-12 23:40:02.000000000 +0100
+++ /usr/local/portage/kde-plasma/powerdevil/powerdevil-5.17.3.ebuild   2019-11-13 18:15:52.604116154 +0100
@@ -18,7 +18,7 @@
 
 DEPEND="
        >=kde-frameworks/kactivities-${KFMIN}:5
-       >=kde-frameworks/kauth-${KFMIN}:5[policykit]
+       >=kde-frameworks/kauth-${KFMIN}:5
        >=kde-frameworks/kcompletion-${KFMIN}:5
        >=kde-frameworks/kconfig-${KFMIN}:5
        >=kde-frameworks/kconfigwidgets-${KFMIN}:5
@@ -52,7 +52,7 @@
 "
 RDEPEND="${DEPEND}
        >=kde-plasma/kde-cli-tools-${PVCUT}:5
-       >=sys-power/upower-0.9.23
+       sys-power/pm-utils
 "
 
 src_configure() {


Regards, Gatsby
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve_v wrote:
Were the systemd developers making any effort to maintain compatibility with existing userland infrastructure and non-Linux unices such as BSD, or designing their software in a way that allows breaking out components into standalone services without undue pain


Unfortunately it isn't limited to systemd, AFA gnome is concerned. Dbus is mandated practically everywhere whether it's really needed or not, the same for gobject-introspection* and a few other things. Granted there are times when you want to send messages to a component of the system, but they walked away from tried and true messaging methodologies that every unix has as default in favor of dbus ... just because. Most of the time dbus is used for messaging many other methods would work just as well, the only difference it wouldn't require pulling in dbus to do it and then things would work on any unix based system. And no the answer isn't "put dbus in the kernel", the answer is use what's there correctly instead of trying to shoehorn brain-damage-designed software into the kernel.


And as far as *logind/*kit, I don't need or use them as I don't use a DM, I boot to command line and use startx, so anything that requires those pieces of software aren't necessary on my system. I don't run a multi-user system.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
It works just fine when you put elogind in boot runlevel and don't rely on socket activation...
Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatsby wrote:
Code:
+       sys-power/pm-utils

Be prepared to put this in your local overlay soon, pm-utils is dead since 2010. bug 659616
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Gatsby wrote:
Code:
+       sys-power/pm-utils

Be prepared to put this in your local overlay soon, pm-utils is dead since 2010. bug 659616

Many thanks.
It's already done.
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