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Hu
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Because of course multiple programs will be trying to create/modify the file(s) it's working on. :roll:
Gentoo's eclass provides the ability to process tmpfiles when a package that provides a tmpfiles list is installed, so it's possible that there are untrusted user programs running concurrently.
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I haven't looked (because I'm not that interested) but I'm pretty sure that basically he's doing mknod/chown/chmod, just from inside a program and it's no more inherently safe or free from race conditions, etc than the shell script. Because to make it secure, you'd have to make sure absolutely no other program is running at the same time, and they don't do that.
According to the quoted bit, they do a lot of work with openat (and presumably fchmod) to ensure that they can give the kernel a file's name, then read back data about the file thus named, then modify that same file, and guarantee that if someone swapped out the named object for something else between the check phase and the update phase, that the update still hits the checked object, not whatever is there now. As you suggest, this only matters if there is a concurrently executing process that is rearranging files to try to provoke tmpfiles to do the wrong thing. During early boot, that's extremely unlikely. However, during package installation, it's possible. I glanced at the Gentoo tmpfiles script, but it is complicated enough that I decided not to try to find these alleged weaknesses. Although inconvenient, I'm pretty sure very careful use of proc magic links would allow a shell script to do at least some of the things that Lennart says systemd does. (The *at and f* syscalls are cleaner, but they're not the only way.)
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Quote:
But I am pretty sure just copying 1:1 what systemd came up with is pointless. Take our code, it's free, fork it if you must, but why reimplement the exact same thing in a crappier way again?
As if all of systemd isn't the crappier way. as far as taking your code, when it starts being implemented in a proper manageable way, instead of throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, maybe.
I haven't looked at the systemd code for tmpfiles specifically, but I would suggest drawing a careful line between bad design versus bad implementation. In the name of compatibility, we are stuck with whatever bad designs systemd promotes. However, it's possible that their implementation is still of a high quality, and worth copying/forking instead of rewriting. It's also possible that it isn't, and that a rewrite could upstage them.
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Why does LP even care whether someone is doing something similar in script, whether it has bugs or not?
It has nothing to do with systemd, and even if it had bugs it might possibly push people towards using his software.
So again why does he care? What does it matter to him?
Reporting of security bugs isn't always as clear as it ought to be. He may be concerned that systemd will be unfairly tarnished (yes, hold your laughter please) by news of an exploit that affects the openrc tmpfiles processor, but does not affect the systemd tmpfiles processor (due to their more aggressive use of openat, etc.). If the exploit is just reported as "race condition in tmpfiles", it's unclear which processor(s) are impacted, and people may assume all of them are impacted.
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Before systemd/tmpfiles all the stuff it does used to be done manually or by way of *tada* shell script.
And I don't remember any exploits for any of the things that tmpfiles has before the advent of tmpfiles/systemd so maybe it's not so much that doing the things is wrong but the whole concept of the way systemd/tmpfiles does it needs to be rethought.
Prior to systemd/tmpfiles, the logic was distributed across a mixture of individual shell scripts, each with their own quirks, and package managers being given a directory structure to merge to the filesystem. It may be that the exploits against those earlier iterations were never developed/published, because the set of exploitable targets was too small to be worth it. Now that the systemd tmpfiles design has centralized us on two processors (opentmpfiles, and systemd's internal one), exploits are likely to be more portable. It could also be just that these types of exploits were historically ignored in preference to easier exploits, and those have now been fixed, so attacking this is now the easiest thing to do.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The timing of Pottering soapbox cannot be understated here. Debian are voting on init-system diversity as Debian appear to be struggling with non-systemd bugs (some being why bother, some no time... ) https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002

A PR push to "show" that non-systemd stuff is just NIH and is a security threat will be to sway the vote since if Debian goes 100% systemd and such to not consider any other init/daemon system, that is two of the base distributions (RH, Debian) locked for for the foreseeable future

Quote:

Init scripts are the lowest common denominator across all init systems.


I have said this before... there is an argument for openRC to support systemd unit files and equally freedesktop should have been pushing for a specification/API not an implementation but there you have it
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
Let's remove /usr/bin/date next

I don't have /usr/bin/date ! I do have /bin/date

How clever of you. I also have /bin/date. I'll try this again.

Let's remove /bin/date next.

And then /bin/printf.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting article, about all this, (LWN where the original discussion/post was needs to be subscribed to, but slashdot has an article with links to some views)

https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/11/16/0056214/debian-project-drafts-general-resolution-on-init-system-diversity


I like Ted Ts'o view https://lwn.net/ml/debian-devel/20191030193017.GA3309@mit.edu/

Quote:
Yep, and this is the "embrace, extend, and extinguish" phenomenom of
systemd which caused so much fear and loathing. Lennart is the
Ballmer of the Linux infrastructure world. :-)

:lol:

Basically it seems LP/systemd cabal is gearing up to push everyone and everything else out of the linux biosphere ala the way MS did it years ago.
And the upstream idiots with software projects who do things that tie them exclusively to systemd are helping them along.

~le sigh~

Edit to add: It seems debian is putting up a poll with basically 3 choices on it

Code:

    Affirm init diversity
    Support "exploring" alternatives to systemd, "but believing sysvinit is a distraction in achieving that." [Marco d'Itri later noted that less than 1% of new installs use sysvinit]
    "Systemd without diversity as a priority." There would be no requirement to support anything but systemd in Debian.


It's kind of funny (the comment about choice #2) less that %1 percent of new install use sysvinit, because when your base install only lays down systemd, you're going to have to go out of your way to use something else, and most people either aren't motivated to do that or lack the knowledge of how to do that or perhaps don't even realize there is a choice.

It's kind of like saying that less than %1 of new computers use something else other than MS, so we should only use MS :roll:

ETA2: it seems that this whole debate has larger ramifications than just debian, and it makes me realize the ambitions that LP and company have, re. their controlling the linux biosphere. And it makes me realize why he's pointing finger at gentoo specifically.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It the end, if RH get their way, systemd will be a wrapper around the kernel and nothing will speak to the kernel directly.
Rather like Windows.

That lets RH sell evil binary only applications that link to systemd, not the kernel, so there is no GPL-2 infringement.
Rather like Windows.

If you want to get that close to the Windows business model, just use Windows.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Neddy, my view (which anyone that reads my posts about systemd in the past) pretty much aligns with your fears ala RH's takeover of the linux world becoming the linux equivalent of windows. RH could never compete with MS on the windows battleground, but they have a chance if they groom linux into becoming the next windows. It's sad but if enough people roll over and let it happen, then that's what we'll have, an RH dominated linux world and the choices will be few. If that happens I can see a future where even projects like KDE will have a hard time surviving. Like MS when you control the biosphere it's hard for others to even enter it.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I like Ted Ts'o view
I find I usually like his views in general.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Basically it seems LP/systemd cabal is gearing up to push everyone and everything else out of the linux biosphere ala the way MS did it years ago.

IMO they've been doing that for quite some time already, with considerable success.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
That lets RH sell evil binary only applications that link to systemd, not the kernel, so there is no GPL-2 infringement.
Properly dark, and probably true.



Honestly, I expect Debian to cave and take the easiest option, they're pretty much systemd only already and changing that will be more work than anyone wants.
I don't like it, but I've seen it happen too many times. Debian wants GNOME, so Debian will keep drinking the systemd kool-aid.

From where I'm sitting the systemd/RedHat behemoth looks pretty unstoppable, and I'm not sure what we can really do about it... Other than keep Gentoo afloat as the last bastion of sanity, freedom, and diversity of course :)
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
It's sad but if enough people roll over and let it happen, then that's what we'll have, an RH dominated linux world and the choices will be few. If that happens I can see a future where even projects like KDE will have a hard time surviving.

KDE is already wedded to systemd and the rest of the freedesktop.org / Red Hat way of doing things, so I don't think that particular DE will have a hard time: https://github.com/KDE/systemd-kcm
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
https://github.com/KDE/systemd-kcm

...that's... an unmaintained systemd configuration UI.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
It's sad but if enough people roll over and let it happen, then that's what we'll have, an RH dominated linux world and the choices will be few. If that happens I can see a future where even projects like KDE will have a hard time surviving.

KDE is already wedded to systemd and the rest of the freedesktop.org / Red Hat way of doing things, so I don't think that particular DE will have a hard time: https://github.com/KDE/systemd-kcm


I remember when MS coexisted with other software too ... until they got enough dominance, and ... well ... the rest is history.
RH's baby is gnome, not kde, I just expect a darker future for anything other than their baby. Maybe my crystal ball will be wrong, time will tell.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
https://github.com/KDE/systemd-kcm

...that's... an unmaintained systemd configuration UI.

Yes, but they're going to pull it into System Settings itself, aren't they?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
asturm wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
https://github.com/KDE/systemd-kcm

...that's... an unmaintained systemd configuration UI.

Yes, but they're going to pull it into System Settings itself, aren't they?

No, there's an equally dormant alternative kcm for systemd available in repositories, but even if some standard config UI exists for ticking some systemd boxes I fail to see the point it makes. There's a plasma-systemd-integration task, but it also says: 'Behaviour has to be opt-in.' And I hope it stays that way.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose,

Its not all doom and gloom. Remember what happened in the Workstation market ... think Apollo Domain and their competitors, all doing vendor lockin.
If you didn't live through that particular piece of computer history, its here.

It could happen again.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
No, there's an equally dormant alternative kcm for systemd available in repositories, but even if some standard config UI exists for ticking some systemd boxes I fail to see the point it makes.

Are you referring to SystemdGenie (app-admin/systemdgenie)?

asturm wrote:
There's a plasma-systemd-integration task, but it also says: 'Behaviour has to be opt-in.'

Famous last words, as the saying goes.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Interesting article, about all this, (LWN where the original discussion/post was needs to be subscribed to, but slashdot has an article with links to some views)
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/11/16/0056214/debian-project-drafts-general-resolution-on-init-system-diversity

Shameless plug again: you might be interested my /. comment as well.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve_v wrote:
From where I'm sitting the systemd/RedHat behemoth looks pretty unstoppable, and I'm not sure what we can really do about it... Other than keep Gentoo afloat as the last bastion of sanity, freedom, and diversity of course :)

Alpine, Artix, Void etc also await your exploration :)
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
asturm wrote:
There's a plasma-systemd-integration task, but it also says: 'Behaviour has to be opt-in.'

Famous last words, as the saying goes.

That would mean dropping BSD support which at this point is important enough for upstream to even run BSD CI images. So, not saying that will never ever happen, but it might be further away than you think.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasperVector wrote:
Alpine, Artix, Void etc also await your exploration :)

This guy seems to be maintaining a list: Linux distros without systemd.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
This guy seems to be maintaining a list: Linux distros without systemd.
Quote:
Now, with Gentoo it's interesting. While the Gentoo handbook says it uses OpenRC as default init system, we received mixed feedback from different people on whether Gentoo is a systemd distribution or not. So: we ran a small poll on Twitter: "Is Gentoo systemd distro?" The result was not exactly a clean-cut.
Hehehe. The correct option was missing from the Twitter poll: "both are correct".
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
This guy seems to be maintaining a list: Linux distros without systemd.

The same guy is maintaining another site: https://the-world-after-systemd.ungleich.ch/
Quote:
Why after systemd?

We think that even though many distros have adopted systemd, the general design or motivation of the project is not good and will lead to more problems than it solves.
We anticipate that systemd is currently in fashion, however many of us have seen software rising and falling, especially if it was ill designed (sendmail anyone?).
In that sense we are planning for the time when distros and users are beginning to migrate away from systemd.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatsby wrote:
The same guy is maintaining another site: https://the-world-after-systemd.ungleich.ch/

That KISS Linux sounds interesting.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.muylinux.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/funny-systemd.gif
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
RH could never compete with MS on the windows battleground, but they have a chance if they groom linux into becoming the next windows. It's sad but if enough people roll over and let it happen, then that's what we'll have, an RH dominated linux world and the choices will be few. If that happens I can see a future where even projects like KDE will have a hard time surviving. Like MS when you control the biosphere it's hard for others to even enter it.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I remember when MS coexisted with other software too ... until they got enough dominance, and ... well ... the rest is history.
RH's baby is gnome, not kde, I just expect a darker future for anything other than their baby. Maybe my crystal ball will be wrong, time will tell.
To state the obvious which hasn't yet been stated here, IBM bought RH, so in a rubbernecking trainwreck sort of way, it'll be interesting to see how this unfolds with MS' recent friendliness towards Linux.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I remember when MS coexisted with other software too

I don't. Microsoft has been raising the unemployment rate since the 80s.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
The timing of Pottering soapbox cannot be understated here. Debian are voting on init-system diversity as Debian appear to be struggling with non-systemd bugs (some being why bother, some no time... ) https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002
Debian is a mixed bag. They have maintainers that claim that current policy prevents them from using systemd to its fullest potential, and others that apparently neither want to do the work of keeping their packages systemd-agnostic, nor let others do it and integrate the results. This one is a funny bug that was referenced in discussions about the need of a general resolution. Apparently, they had a Tomcat 9 package that did not provide a "sysvinit script" [1], someone volunteered to provide one that seemingly had objections, and when someone else realized that policy stated that those scripts must be provided, he kind of went, paraphrasing Winston Wolf from Pulp Fiction, "you see, according to current policy, this is a bug, so I'm changing the severity to serious, I'm going to provide patches, I'm going to maintain them, and I'm going to fix bugs if there are any, so when I submit these patches, pretty please, with sugar on top, commit the f*@#$ing thing".

And on the other side of the spectrum, there's the people that tried to get elogind packaged (and met quite a resistance, to the point that Sam Hartman, a.k.a the DPL, had to intervene quite a few times), and they have experiments going on like GNU/kFreeBSD and Debian images with GNU Hurd (for perspective, the Guix system ships with Linux-Libre). Which I suppose are close to going out of the window if efforts to maintain non-systemd alternatives stop.

[1] They should really be called "shell scripts for that other rc subsystem that only Debian and derivatives have" (sysv-rc + insserv + init-system-helpers + startpar + lsb-base). The majority of the non-systemd distributions use OpenRC, with or without sysvinit.
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