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Ridrok
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:55 pm    Post subject: I consider Gentoo is nearly dead Reply with quote

Hello all,

Why do I write it?

Because many many packages are deleted and many useful are still missing
- No more dev-libs/ace: I had to remove it for the last update, but I need it.
- No DeadBeef to play dff and dsf files
- No WMware packages
- No Lutris to play windows games
- No proper mail client (like Mailspring)
- No more Icap for my server that I need to have https with squid
- etc...

I don't know what you focus on, but Gentoo is now a base linux with less and less software.
I have VMware softs, Lutris and DeadBeef and many more, but to have them, I need to add tons of overlays that cause conflicts with your updates from time to time.

So now Gentoo can no more be used as a Desktop primary OS nor as security server for me.

What is the point of Gentoo now? I ask this question open. But... I also search for another linux distribution that has some future to be run as a primary OS on a main desktop client AND and another to run as proxy/router server.
I am gentoo for more than 10 years on servers and 5 months on my main desktop, but seeing the deleted and blocked packages in last months I miss more and more things.

Do I really need to build everything from github sources for things I need or there is an "supported" overlay that contains many things a user on desktop would need, or do I need to switch to another linux brand?

Open questions... I love Gentoo for a long time but I feel I have to change now.

Ridrok
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mike155
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you looked at Gentoo overlays? Ebuilds for most of the packages you mentioned seem to be there.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:51 am    Post subject: Re: I consider Gentoo is nearly dead Reply with quote

Ridrok wrote:
- No more dev-libs/ace: I had to remove it for the last update, but I need it.
- No DeadBeef to play dff and dsf files
I've never heard of these. ace seems to be long gone. I don't have it in a snapshot from June.
Ridrok wrote:
- No WMware packages
People still use VMware? I very rarely see it mentioned, and usually only by people who need some critical feature that Qemu/KVM can't provide.
Ridrok wrote:
- No Lutris to play windows games
I've heard of Lutris, but never used it for any of my Windows-native games.
Ridrok wrote:
- No proper mail client (like Mailspring)
None of the packages in /usr/portage/mail-client/ qualify?
Ridrok wrote:
I don't know what you focus on, but Gentoo is now a base linux with less and less software.
Gentoo provides what its volunteer developers choose to work on.
Ridrok wrote:
What is the point of Gentoo now? I ask this question open. But... I also search for another linux distribution that has some future to be run as a primary OS on a main desktop client AND and another to run as proxy/router server.
I use Gentoo for both of these things. I have for years, and currently have no plans to change.
Ridrok wrote:
I love Gentoo for a long time but I feel I have to change now.
Go ahead and change. If you're not happy, our purpose is not to ask you to stay. Our purpose is to help you solve specific problems.
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fpemud
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I need to add tons of overlays that cause conflicts with your updates from time to time.


I encouter the same problem when I use overlays.
I think this is a big problem to be solved.
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fedeliallalinea
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fpemud wrote:
I encouter the same problem when I use overlays.
I think this is a big problem to be solved.

You can also create a local overlay and copy only package you need from overlay.
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DaggyStyle
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: I consider Gentoo is nearly dead Reply with quote

Ridrok wrote:
- No Lutris to play windows games

this? https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/games-util/lutris
got the link from https://lutris.net/downloads/
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krinn
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: I consider Gentoo is nearly dead Reply with quote

Ridrok wrote:
Why do I write it?

Qui veut noyer son chien... :)
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saboya
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's a legitimate argument to be made to say Gentoo might be dying, although Gentoo was never a "big hit" distro to begin with, so I don't see the huge decline, just a steady "niche distro" status.

However, I don't think none of those points are actually valid to support that claim. Some are personal preference, and some are just outright wrong (lutris is in the main tree).

Also, it is worth mentioning that Gentoo isn't the most "user-friendly" distro out there, and the concepts behind its functionality encourage you to have some ownership to your own system, and that includes managing overlays, applying custom patches and creating ebuilds of your own.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: I consider Gentoo is nearly dead Reply with quote

Ridrok wrote:
- No more dev-libs/ace: I had to remove it for the last update, but I need it.

There's app-arch/unace...
Ridrok wrote:
- No DeadBeef to play dff and dsf files

Blame upstream...
Quote:
> deadbeef source tree contains forks of 16 different libraries, and won't even
> compile against upstream versions.
..
> "i've been contacted by maintainers from Gentoo, Debian and Fedora (at
> least) regarding this problem, and there's no way to solve it.
> everyone wants me to link to upstream/distro versions, but that won't happen."

Ridrok wrote:
- No proper mail client (like Mailspring)

I'll assume you searched as hard as you did for ace...
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logrusx
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: I consider Gentoo is nearly dead Reply with quote

Ridrok wrote:

Do I really need to build everything from github sources for things I need or there is an "supported" overlay that contains many things a user on desktop would need, or do I need to switch to another linux brand?
Ridrok


I remember having tried writing ebuilds. Why don't you try that too?

Regards,
Georgi
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fedeliallalinea
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: I consider Gentoo is nearly dead Reply with quote

logrusx wrote:
I remember having tried writing ebuilds. Why don't you try that too?

And then become a proxy maintainer?
The problem isn't put an ebuild in tree but have someone that maintain it (ebuild bug fix, version bump, testing,...)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Portage & Programming to Gentoo Chat. Not a support request so it fits better here.

Hmm. Should I merge this thread with the why Gentoo sucks, and why it will ultimately die thread? It, at least, has been dead now for almost 5 years.

- John
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo has been reported to be dying since I installed in the middle of 2002.

Its like
Mark Twain wrote:
reports of my death are greatly exaggerated

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Fitzcarraldo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Python script acefile to read/test/extract ACE 1.0 and 2.0 archives also looks promising: https://pypi.org/project/acefile/

I don't think there is a need to install it, just unpack acefile-0.6.12.tar.gz and run the Python script in ~/acefile-0.6.12/:

Code:
fitzcarraldo@clevow230ss ~/acefile-0.6.12 $ python acefile.py --help
usage: acefile.py [-h] [-V] [--extract | --test | --list | --headers] [-d X]
                  [-p X] [-r] [-b] [-v] [--debug]
                  archive [file [file ...]]

Read/test/extract ACE 1.0 and 2.0 archives in pure python.

positional arguments:
  archive             archive to read from
  file                file(s) in archive to operate on, default all

optional arguments:
  -h, --help          show this help message and exit
  -V, --version       show version and exit
  --extract, -x       extract files in archive (default)
  --test, -t          test archive integrity
  --list, -l          list files in archive
  --headers           dump archive headers
  -d X, --basedir X   base directory for extraction
  -p X, --password X  password for decryption
  -r, --restore       restore mtime/atime, attribs and ntsecurity on
                      extraction
  -b, --batch         suppress all interactive input
  -v, --verbose       be more verbose
  --debug             show mode transitions and expose internal exceptions


Code:
fitzcarraldo@clevow230ss ~/acefile-0.6.12 $ python acefile.py --extract example.ace



EDIT: While reading about the ACE compression format, the following caught my eye:

https://www.avanan.com/resources/ace-attack

https://research.checkpoint.com/extracting-code-execution-from-winrar/

https://medium.com/@seifreed/how-to-deal-with-ace-malware-files-592eb52e7135


EDIT: Ah, just realised the OP was referring to ACE (Adaptive Communication Environment) rather than the ACE file compression format. In that case, if dev-libs/ace is not available in the Portage main tree, I would copy an ebuild for it (see link below) to a local overlay on my machine, rather than adding a third-party overlay using layman.

https://metagit.org/blizzlike/overlay/raw/branch/master/dev-libs/ace/ace-6.4.7.ebuild
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Last edited by Fitzcarraldo on Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sad thing (for OP, not for us) is that most of those questions would have answers if they weren't worded in such a needlessly antagonistic way. But he's gone now, and we're richer for it.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its like
Mark Twain wrote:
reports of my death are greatly exaggerated
You couldn't have quoted any better.

10/10
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not a technology professional, just a user who maintains a linux desktop system by believing in the advanced linux philosophy. Already kept the most popular linux distributions and gentoo is more advanced compared to others, which allows higher performance. What's more, it's the distribution I found with the fewest problems. All the stones I found in gentoo got a solution in the community. I believe that if the colleague had consulted the community for each of the questions he posed, he would have come to a completely opposite conclusion, because here there are very aware people in the system. But he preferred to draw that conclusion on his own and so came up with an incoherent answer to what it really is. He loses by leaving gentoo.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@fedeliallalinea

Quote:
You can also create a local overlay and copy only package you need from overlay.


It's too much trouble to do that.
I have to manually copy all the dependencies, follow the version bump of the package and all its dependencies.
And sometimes there're various other conflicts (such as eclass) either.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: I consider Gentoo is nearly dead Reply with quote

Ridrok wrote:

- No DeadBeef to play dff and dsf files

media-sound/cantata
and
media-sound/mpd

Can play dff dsf and also use dop with usb DACs
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fedeliallalinea
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fpemud wrote:
It's too much trouble to do that.
I have to manually copy all the dependencies, follow the version bump of the package and all its dependencies.
And sometimes there're various other conflicts (such as eclass) either.

I writing (not very good code but works) for download the ebuilds from gpo.zugania.org (gpo-zugaina-dl).
I'd have to get my hands on it to improve it a little bit.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fpemud wrote:
@fedeliallalinea

Quote:
You can also create a local overlay and copy only package you need from overlay.


It's too much trouble to do that.
I have to manually copy all the dependencies, follow the version bump of the package and all its dependencies.
And sometimes there're various other conflicts (such as eclass) either.


Say what? copy dependencies?

pull down layman ebuild, copy directory to local repo, delete layman ... done

When ebuild you are using no longer works, then repeat above.

I personally use deadbeef, and upgrade every few years. It's no harder than what I described above.

If things like this are too challenging, then that's what binary distros are for.

Edit to add: If one is trying to use an ebuild that is so old that it doesn't work, then find a newer one or a better package than that.
I have almost 300 ebuilds in my local repo and have only have to modify 4-5 out of all of them.
If they won't compile (because of glibc/gcc/whatever) then I look for alternatives or patches from the internet to make it work.

If the dependencies are old packages that aren't available then that's definitely a reason to find alternatives.

What you're saying is comparable to "I don't want to drive anymore because it's too hard to find parts for my 59 edsel".

If you want to use something not mainstream, then yes, you might have to work a little for it,
it's foolish to think that gentoo or any distro will change because of reasons mentioned in the OP and what I quoted.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
pull down layman ebuild, copy directory to local repo, delete layman ... done


Alternatively, when I pull in a new overlay for one package, rather than copying the ebuild from the overlay to my local overlay, I just mask everything want from that overlay and then unmask what I specifically want from the overlay. That way I don't really even have to worry about handling version bumps assuming the overlay maintainer is actively managing the package I want.

I have jorgicio's overlay pretty much only for x11-themes/papirus-icon-themes, so I mask everything except for that --
Code:

package.mask/overlay-masks:
*/*::jorgicio

package.unmask/papirus:
x11-themes/papirus-icon-theme::jorgicio


The kinda funny thing compared to OP is that what keeps me coming back to gentoo is the ease with which you can roll your own stuff if something isn't available. Of course, my software needs aren't particularly esoteric either, so it's not like I need to run my own in gentoo very often. At most, it's copying & renaming an ebuild file for a version bump or maybe making a change to an existing -9999 ebuild to pull the source from a different branch. I'd hardly call any of that difficult.

You would think after using gentoo for 17-18 years I'd have found a reason to need to write my own full ebuild, but it hasn't happened yet.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually i wondered a bit, too - coming back to linux / gentoo after about 10 years, i noticed the forums are much less busy than when i left. Huge difference, at some time i remember about 10 pages of new posts per day, now there is one.
But i have to say, i've installed the system in a few hours, and almost everything worked out of the box - despite some problems with nouveau not supporting my RTX, which is, i have to admit, a very new card.
But sound worked, network no problem (despite wireless), ...and with gentoo, i have complete control, other than with some other distros i tried, which try to keep the user away from /etc, simply said.
And gaming works too, with steam and stuff...gotta say, im very much impressed.

So, i dont think gentoo is dead or will be in near future. Maybe there are other distros, some more userfriendly for the common windows guy taking a peak at linux, which are used by more users today, but gentoo has some things to offer most others don't: _the choice_, and a lot to learn about how linux and a computer in general function, and some more...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stahlsau wrote:
actually i wondered a bit, too - coming back to linux / gentoo after about 10 years, i noticed the forums are much less busy than when i left. Huge difference, at some time i remember about 10 pages of new posts per day, now there is one.

Yes, back when I first started looking at these forums in 2007 there were at least 3 pages of posts daily, if not more. I'm certain the number of Gentoo users has dropped significantly over the past decade. Interest in Gentoo certainly has dropped: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=5&date=all&q=gentoo%20linux

stahlsau wrote:
But i have to say, i've installed the system in a few hours, and almost everything worked out of the box - despite some problems with nouveau not supporting my RTX, which is, i have to admit, a very new card.
But sound worked, network no problem (despite wireless), ...and with gentoo, i have complete control, other than with some other distros i tried, which try to keep the user away from /etc, simply said.
And gaming works too, with steam and stuff...gotta say, im very much impressed.

One thing that has improved a lot since I started using Gentoo is Portage, at least in terms of dependency resolution and blockage handling. I used to have to do a lot more work to resolve problems during upgrades; merging world seems a lot less troublesome than it used to be ten years ago. Portage is a lot slower than it used to be, but that's presumably because it does a lot more than it used to do. I used to have to use revdep-rebuild frequently, but not any more.

stahlsau wrote:
So, i dont think gentoo is dead or will be in near future. Maybe there are other distros, some more userfriendly for the common windows guy taking a peak at linux, which are used by more users today, but gentoo has some things to offer most others don't: _the choice_, and a lot to learn about how linux and a computer in general function, and some more...

Gentoo certainly isn't dead or dying; it has just settled down to a smaller user base of enthusiasts. Gentoo is not for everyone. In fact, if I were just interested in having an OS that let me get on with the usual tasks, I wouldn't be using Gentoo. I think one has to choose the right tool for the job. I wouldn't dream of installing Gentoo on any of my family's machines, only on mine. I installed Lubuntu on my family's desktop machine, because it is a low-maintenance OS with automatic update notifications and painless, fast package updates. But I installed Gentoo on my laptops because I want to tinker with the OS, configure it exactly the way I want, learn more about what is under the hood and try out various things. You can do that too with a binary distribution, but with Gentoo I feel I know more about the OS internals and package management than with a pre-canned binary distribution.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the distro is in decline. It's just that it's not flashy to the point of attracting as many people who just want to give it a quick try.

Those of us who have been using it continue to use Gentoo. I have it in on several machines in fact. Once the configurations are set in place, not that much fiddling is needed actually. The cookie-cutter binary distros seems to be more error prone from my experience.
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