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asturm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

User: Tony0945
Topic: Is Profile 17.1 a move toward a Linux monoculture?
Post: post 8354390
Reason: Nothing in this post and below is related to the topic. Maybe fits into https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1095986-highlight-tmpfiles.html.
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backend.cpp:92:2: warning: #warning TODO - this error message is about as useful as a cooling unit in the arctic


Last edited by asturm on Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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pjp
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
User: Tony0945
Topic: Is Profile 17.1 a move toward a Linux monoculture?
Post: post 8354390
Reason: Nothing in this post and below is related to the topic. Maybe fits into https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1095986-highlight-tmpfiles.html.
The posts seem related to comments made in the split usr thread about maintaining custom ebuilds. Splitting is almost never an ideal solution. Merging those posts back to the split usr thread would be the easeist, but not necessairly best approach, and they dodn't yet seem to warrant their own thread.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Splitting is almost never an ideal solution. Merging those posts back to the split usr thread would be the easeist, but not necessairly best approach, and they dodn't yet seem to warrant their own thread.

And that's why I'm glad not to be a moderator.

- split /usr is en route to the usual systemd thread fate
- profile thread ends in non profile offtopic chatter

It's only chat after all, so why bother. But it also means none of these discussions ever come to an end, because !discipline
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pjp
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not "why bother" so much as "do the least harm" (a guideline if not official rule). And, yes, being in Chat makes it more difficult to keep discussion highlily limited as conversation is generaly fairly organic. That said, it also generally becomes obvoious when meaningful discussion ends.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Not "why bother" so much as "do the least harm" (a guideline if not official rule). And, yes, being in Chat makes it more difficult to keep discussion highlily limited as conversation is generaly fairly organic. That said, it also generally becomes obvoious when meaningful discussion ends.

Both threads are now finding their natural ending in joint RH conspiracy prose. How could it be any way else.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
pjp wrote:
Not "why bother" so much as "do the least harm" (a guideline if not official rule). And, yes, being in Chat makes it more difficult to keep discussion highlily limited as conversation is generaly fairly organic. That said, it also generally becomes obvoious when meaningful discussion ends.

Both threads are now finding their natural ending in joint RH conspiracy prose. How could it be any way else.


If it distresses you so much, might I suggest that you simply skip over those threads and only deal with threads where a dev is really needed to answer technical questions. Personally I see no problem with chit-chatting, even if it goes a direction that I might not like, but that's just me being open minded. And it's not like I have a problem with you participating and stating your views, but this "mommy, mommy they're doing things I don't like" attitude is getting tiring.

Edit to add: I apologize to the admins/mods as I know this isn't a report. If this is split off or simply deleted, it's all fine by me.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't care anymore, already. But no one entering these threads for their title is getting out of them any wiser, if anything, for the worse. "do the least harm" moderation style led to the predicted outcome. It's just a different version of the typical systemd thread derailment, with the same participants forever treading their hamster mills. Enter thread, copy, paste and go. And I'm fully aware that many times threads can't be saved after a split because users don't notice their content has been cleaned up; but that's not the case here, as the *new* thread was derailed immediately.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
might I suggest that you simply skip over those threads and only deal with threads where a dev is really needed to answer technical questions.

Isn't that nice. Yes, let the echo chamber have its safe space, where technical questions will be politicised to no avail. If it distresses *you* so much that I care how threads around important topics progress, why are *you* not skipping over this thread?

Anon-E-moose wrote:
even if it goes a direction that I might not like, but that's just me being open minded.

Marvelling at offtopic is no sign of open mindedness, it's just indifference.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm, I suppose it would be fine if the direction was to your liking. It's "chat" not a support thread.
Just more censorship of opinion.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

offtopic is no opinion. if you don't even care to look at what is being discussed here, what point is there in even commenting?
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

User: Tony0945
Topic: Gentoo seems to be chasing nu Linux design (/usr merge)
Post: post 8355242
Reason: personal attack

always playing the dying swan, why...
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
offtopic is no opinion. if you don't even care to look at what is being discussed here, what point is there in even commenting?


You're the one trying to get speech shut down just because you disagree with the idea of hearing a differing opinion... If you don't want to discuss a topic, avoid the thread, don't cry that it exists and then attack the participants for defending their right to speak.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neither you nor Tony0945 have looked at the initial report that got this going.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
It's just a different version of the typical systemd thread derailment, with the same participants forever treading their hamster mills. Enter thread, copy, paste and go.

I note the irony of a developer, who spends half their time in the report thread and the other half telling people they're wrong, complaining that a user writing some code is “thread derailment”.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
But no one entering these threads for their title is getting out of them any wiser, if anything, for the worse. "do the least harm" moderation style led to the predicted outcome.
Perhaps I cannot see the "worse" side of it because I know the arguments and the history, but could you explain why you think this thread is actively counterproductive? Participants are clearly unhappy with certain decisions, but I don't see anything in there spreading what I would consider dangerous misinformation (such as misleading people into breaking their systems, misleading people into bad decisions, or posting content likely to incite illegal activity). Since the thread is in Chat, I'm inclined to let it be unless someone clearly breaks the rules. (On that note, I am a bit unhappy with some of the posts in that thread, and will respond to those in turn.)
asturm wrote:
Enter thread, copy, paste and go.
This particular criticism is of interest to me. It's well known that the official dependency data doesn't recognize that very old openrc had built-in support for tmpfiles, and that this omission causes problems for people who choose to remain on those versions. The cited bit isn't how I would have implemented it, but it looks like a reasonable workaround for people who want to use an old openrc and want not to maintain forks of numerous individual ebuilds. Aside from some grousing about this particular omission, I can't recall any of the old-openrc crowd causing trouble related to the use of old-openrc. What is your complaint about the cited bit? Do you think they should just give up and move forward to a newer openrc? Do you dislike the particulars of how the workaround was done?
asturm wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
might I suggest that you simply skip over those threads and only deal with threads where a dev is really needed to answer technical questions.
Isn't that nice. Yes, let the echo chamber have its safe space, where technical questions will be politicised to no avail. If it distresses *you* so much that I care how threads around important topics progress, why are *you* not skipping over this thread?
I don't have a problem with developers showing up in political threads, but I would prefer that the moderation team not get dragged into this quite so often.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split off Tony0945 / from "/usr merge" (locked) from its parent, Gentoo seems to be chasing nu Linux design (/usr merge).

That's all fo rnow, it's late, I'm tired.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm putting $50 on Tony and $2 on Asturm.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
asturm wrote:
Enter thread, copy, paste and go.
This particular criticism is of interest to me. It's well known that the official dependency data doesn't recognize that very old openrc had built-in support for tmpfiles, and that this omission causes problems for people who choose to remain on those versions. The cited bit isn't how I would have implemented it, but it looks like a reasonable workaround for people who want to use an old openrc and want not to maintain forks of numerous individual ebuilds. Aside from some grousing about this particular omission, I can't recall any of the old-openrc crowd causing trouble related to the use of old-openrc. What is your complaint about the cited bit? Do you think they should just give up and move forward to a newer openrc? Do you dislike the particulars of how the workaround was done?

Well that's baffling. When, as a moderator, you click on a link as reported in https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8354450.html#8354450 what is going through your mind when looking at the topic of the reported thread? Or even just the last message before that post? I did not have any comment on its implementation, I did not comment on how unreasonable it is to use old openrc. Instead I took the time to find a thread where Tony's post would be of actual value (and context), so the censorship sentiment comes to nothing. It really should not be my duty to explain to you how offtopic and out of context this was. I realise this is a tedious and often fruitless task; and you can say 'well, it's chat'; but your difficulty to identify the issue here is mindboggling. If, on the other hand, your take-away from it is thinking 'maybe I should do that tmpfiles hack because profile 17.1' then we already have "the worse" right there.

Ant P. wrote:
...that a user writing some code is “thread derailment”.

I could give you that, under the premise that said code was relevant for Profile 17.1 or *any* of the preceeding posts - but it wasn't. So it seems you just get irony wrong? I don't blame you, it happens to a lot of people.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Tony0945:

After consideration, your comment is a clear violation of forum guidelines* and general courtesy.

As this incident occurred in Gentoo Chat and not one of the technical support forums, I'm banning you for 1 week (instead of the normal 2 weeks), to be lifted on or about August 7th.

Given a prior incident in Gentoo Chat which was also a violation of forum guidelines** that we did not enforce with a ban, consider self-editing prior to clicking submit.


* Guidelines: #s 1. Use common sense; 10. No personal attacks.
** # 1.

EDIT: Unbanned, 2019.08.07.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
@Tony0945:
* Guidelines: #s 1. Use common sense; 10. No personal attacks.
** # 1.


asturm wrote:
Reason: personal attack

always playing the dying swan, why...


George Orwell - Animal farm wrote:
Some animals are more equal than others.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Tony0945, what is it this time?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A wise man knows he can have the last word but chooses not to.

That's the last word in this topic.
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