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richk449
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:23 am    Post subject: It's even worse than you think Reply with quote

http://calnewport.com/blog/2018/04/11/the-disturbing-high-modernism-of-silicon-valley/
Quote:
Scott blames the technocratic hubris of High Modernism for some of the great social engineering disasters of the 20th century, from Stalin’s famine-inducing farm collectivization, to our own country’s failed mid-century urban renewal projects, which, to quote Pinker, too often “replaced vibrant neighborhoods with freeways, high-rises, windswept plazas, and brutalist architecture.”

Technology has undoubtedly created massive benefits for humanity. But it can cause problems — shifting into High Modernism territory — when it ignores, or even tries to replace our complex humanity instead of working with it.

All of which brings me back to the Facebook memo…

From Utopia to Dystopia

What scares me about the leaked Facebook memo is not the passage where Boz acknowledges the harm this platform can create, but instead what he says next: “we believe in connecting people so deeply that anything that allows us to connect more people more often is *de facto* good.”

Why is this goal a “de facto good”? Boz elaborates:

Quote:
“The natural state of the world is not connected. It is not unified. It is fragmented by borders, languages, and increasingly by different products.”

Facebook can fix this. As Boz explains, growing their reach is more important than their stock price and more important than creating great products. “[C]onnecting people. That’s our imperative.”

I read these lines as arguing that the natural state of human interaction is hopelessly irrational and ineffective. Facebook hopes to replace this “fragmented” state of human sociality with something better; something that spans borders and languages; something that offers many more connections; something that can leverage big data and smart AI to direct our relationships in an optimal manner.

This vision is classic High Modernism — merely shifted from city cores and farm fields to the digital realm. It should, therefore, scare the hell out of us.

If you went back in time 15 years, and showed James Scott a draft of Boz’s vision, Scott would almost certainly warn you that an attempt to reshape something as fundamental and messy as human sociality with a “better” technological solution would backfire in unexpected, dark, and painful ways.
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Marcih
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to make a joke about this being cokey's and sugar's endgame but then I realised they might actually be pro this no-border, interconnected blob of a society.
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patrix_neo
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dystopia of the universe has spoken :)
...and I hate to say it, but, welcome back from your "trip" richk
EDIT : I thought this wasn't necessary, but, but, but, but - no need to respond to pleasantries.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Connectivity seems unlikely to be the problem. The problem is the manipulation of that connectivity.

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something that can leverage big data and smart AI to direct our relationships in an optimal manner.
Optimal by what definition of optimal, and to what end? THAT is the problem.

Allow people to connect on their own, and they'll figure it out. Birds of a feather.
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patrix_neo
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People will be people. Within their own right.

I just like to see when people do good. This is not one of them, elaborating on nonsensical matters. As I see it o/c.
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richk449
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcih wrote:
I was going to make a joke about this being cokey's and sugar's endgame but then I realized they might actually be pro this no-border, interconnected blob of a society.

I don't understand what you are saying. If they are pro a no-border, interconnected blob of a society, they why wouldn't this be their endgame?
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richk449
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Connectivity seems unlikely to be the problem. The problem is the manipulation of that connectivity.

I agree that connectivity is not the problem. And to take it back to the article, technology is not the problem either. Blaming technocratic hubris for Stalin's purges and famines is completely misunderstanding human nature.

I really think the critique should be broadened - if Facebook thinks it can fix the natural state of the world, it has failed to grasp one of the key lessons of the last two hundred years - that institutions can't simply be remade in defiance of human nature.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silicon valley has been completely detached from reality for quite some time. When asked how they suggested to deal with the mass unemployment caused by self driving trucks they boldly claimed they would all be retrained to maintain the trucks at higher wages. Needless to say this just does not make sense. Training high school drop outs in tech fields is generally not a winning proposition.

Facebook's algorithms are noticeably "cliquey" so the groups and such it suggests are simply fragmenting people anyway. Even if their politics are a monotone their other communities are not. The only thing it brings are echo chambers. It doesn't bring people together. The best you can do is simply to communicate with people you already know more conveniently or boast about your 10 million "friends" who you don't have a clue about.

Actually it reflects the entire SJW paradigm. They want to redefine what humanity is and then punish those who do not conform. Just look at the hell they put boys through because they don't play or socialize like girls. Particularly at puberty when the boys and girls have to learn how to interact. They treat all the boy's social missteps like crimes when they are perfectly normal male to male friendship requests.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcih wrote:
I was going to make a joke about this being cokey's and sugar's endgame but then I realised they might actually be pro this no-border, interconnected blob of a society.

Cokey is a British nationalist, just a very confused and insecure one.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
pjp wrote:
Connectivity seems unlikely to be the problem. The problem is the manipulation of that connectivity.

I agree that connectivity is not the problem. And to take it back to the article, technology is not the problem either. Blaming technocratic hubris for Stalin's purges and famines is completely misunderstanding human nature.

I really think the critique should be broadened - if Facebook thinks it can fix the natural state of the world, it has failed to grasp one of the key lessons of the last two hundred years - that institutions can't simply be remade in defiance of human nature.

That's an excellent observation, but you're skirting the issue slightly. The problem is that young, privileged idealists don't know what they don't know, and one of the things they don't know is human nature, so they aren't aware they are trying to defy it. Also, the collective "directing" of relationships is the most Orwellian, North Korean, Ministry of fuck me in the ass for the greater good thing I've heard all day.
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Marcih
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Marcih wrote:
I was going to make a joke about this being cokey's and sugar's endgame but then I realized they might actually be pro this no-border, interconnected blob of a society.

I don't understand what you are saying. If they are pro a no-border, interconnected blob of a society, they why wouldn't this be their endgame?

What I meant is that I was going to poke fun at the two of them that this is what they'd want. However, the joke is less funny and more sad when what I'm making fun of them for is actually true. It's not a complicated joke ;)
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
pjp wrote:
Connectivity seems unlikely to be the problem. The problem is the manipulation of that connectivity.

I agree that connectivity is not the problem. And to take it back to the article, technology is not the problem either. Blaming technocratic hubris for Stalin's purges and famines is completely misunderstanding human nature.

I really think the critique should be broadened - if Facebook thinks it can fix the natural state of the world, it has failed to grasp one of the key lessons of the last two hundred years - that institutions can't simply be remade in defiance of human nature.
If fixing the state of the world was even an actual goal. I'm not convinced it was, at least not in a meaningfully considered manner. In the sense of rule by mob mentality, absolutely. But the company seems to exist primarily for short term financial gain, which is not compatible with long term "encouragement" of changing society. Basically, they too quickly brought the water to boil. The main problem was censorship. They should have implemented blocking tools and kept out of the censorship game other than outright criminal activity (which police seemed to benefit from having available). Maye I'm misunderstanding the "even worse than you think" part.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, let's build Foo, that would be cool!

Oh my God, it's huge. Supposedly, we need, like a "mission" and some kind of, like, altruistic reason d'etre thingy.

Dude! I know, just say what we do in the most simplistic terms possible -- like cave-man style -- and say it's our "purpose". People will be, like, "woah dude, I don't know what that means, but it sounds epic!"
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