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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:45 pm    Post subject: nvidia-drivers-340.108 Reply with quote

When one removes a hardware support for still rather widely deployed hardware, one at least, in my opinion, should not insult user intelligence by given rationale such as

Code:
- x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-340.108::gentoo (masked by: package.mask)
/usr/portage/profiles/package.mask:
# Matt Turner <mattst88@gentoo.org> (2020-08-11)
# NVIDIA declared this branch to have reached end of life about six months ago.
# Blocks removal of app-eselect/eselect-opengl and app-eselect/eselect-opencl.
# Masked for removal in 30 days. Bug #728290


Blocks removal of eselect ?? seriously, this is a reason ?

[Moderator edit: added [code] tags to preserve output layout. -Hu]
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rogge
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm confused about the "solution", too. Using a Quadro FX 3800 and nvidia.com tells me I still need nvidia-drivers-340.108 to proceed.
Is the "solution" by removing this driver to buy a new gfx card? Or keeping my system outdated?

Greets, rogge
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Hu
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about removing that version of the nVidia proprietary driver and switching to a newer maintained one, or switching to the open-source Nouveau driver? Does nVidia no longer maintain drivers that support your still-working card?
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
What about removing that version of the nVidia proprietary driver and switching to a newer maintained one, or switching to the open-source Nouveau driver? Does nVidia no longer maintain drivers that support your still-working card?
nvidia removes support for older cards in newer drivers and then keeps those older drivers supported for a while as a LTS branch. Meaning there are plenty of cards that only works with 340, and nvidia never had any intention to add libglvnd support to this older branch.. while gentoo (read: matt) is adamant about no longer supporting non-libglvnd setups, so it got removed even if it still works with eselect-opengl using nvidia's lack of support as an excuse (support did end around end of 2019).

As for nouveau, it's good enough to get a display but it offers worse performance and no vdpau support (which is often needed on old laptops to get decent video playback). On a desktop with a decent cpu I'm mostly fine using it over dealing with those old drivers though.

390 support will also end around end of 2022, but that one has somewhat-working libglvnd support so it'll probably stay past that date for as long as it works with current xorg and LTS kernels.
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If nouveau or using new hardware is not an option, there is an overlay aimed at supporting eselect-opengl that still has nvidia-drivers-340. But I have no idea how well/long that will be supported so rely on this at your own risks.

See: https://github.com/achurch/noglvnd
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
If nouveau or using new hardware is not an option, there is an overlay aimed at supporting eselect-opengl that still has nvidia-drivers-340. But I have no idea how well/long that will be supported so rely on this at your own risks.

See: https://github.com/achurch/noglvnd


Thanks for the info ! You know how long is needed - until hardware dies :D
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm quite disappointed by the removal of the nvidia-drivers 340 and the related packages.
I got my graphic card years ago when AMD drivers weren't as good as they're today. This card just works and I don't need more gpu performance for the moment.

Is maintaing app-eselect/eselect-opengl such a burden for Gentoo devs? I thought Gentoo was about choice ... removing such a common driver is rather unilateral.

@ Andrew, thank you a lot for the overlay.
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rogge
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
https://github.com/achurch/noglvnd


But the overlay isn't support nvidia-drivers-340.108, too. Isn't it?
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rogge wrote:
But the overlay isn't support nvidia-drivers-340.108, too. Isn't it?
Hm? As I said it's included in it (not that I've tried it), I guess gentoo's last-rite mask may get in the way right now but you can clear it on your end (overlay already does so for eselect-opengl). I doubt it'll get removed because gentoo does, and if something doesn't work can always try to open an issue there (preferably with fixes included given not sure if they have the hardware to test those).

On another note, looks like the overlay did some updating work since last checked so I guess it's doing its job :)
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rogge
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here, both are hard masked.

Code:
[?] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers
     Verfügbare Versionen:   304.137(0/304)^md[1] [M]340.108-r1(0/340)^mtd [M]340.108-r1(0/340)^mtd[2] [m]~390.132-r4(0/390)^mtd [m]~390.132-r4(0/390)^mtd[2] [m]390.138-r4(0/390)^mtd [m]390.138-r4(0/390)^mtd[2] [m]435.21-r6(0/435)^mtd [m]435.21-r6(0/435)^mtd[2] [m]440.100-r2(0/440)^mtd [m]440.100-r2(0/440)^mtd[2] [m]450.66(0/450)^mtd [m]450.66(0/450)^mtd[2] {+X acpi compat (+)driver gtk3 +kms (+)libglvnd multilib pax_kernel static-libs +tools uvm wayland ABI_MIPS="n32 n64 o32" ABI_RISCV="lp64 lp64d" ABI_S390="32 64" ABI_X86="32 64 x32" KERNEL="FreeBSD linux"}
     Installierte Versionen: 340.108(0/340)^mtd(14:26:01 17.06.2020)(X multilib tools -static-libs ABI_MIPS="-n32 -n64 -o32" ABI_RISCV="-lp64 -lp64d" ABI_S390="-32 -64" ABI_X86="32 64 -x32" KERNEL="linux -FreeBSD")
     Startseite:             https://www.nvidia.com/Download/Find.aspx
     Beschreibung:           NVIDIA Accelerated Graphics Driver

[1] "host" /usr/local/portage
[2] "noglvnd" /var/lib/layman/noglvnd
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rogge wrote:
Here, both are hard masked.
Like I said just had to unmask it on your side, but now it won't matter given it's removed from ::gentoo and last rite mask won't interfere with the overlay anymore.

Edit: That aside, had forgotten 340 still hard depended on eselect-opencl too, the ebuild may need updating on the overlay. Formerly it was supposed to be migrated along with the rest (see gentoo-dev post), but got ignored likely because maintainer didn't have the hardware to test it and was looking forward to getting it removed instead.

Edit2: Opened an issue about this. It'd probably help if someone actually using 340 got involved with keeping 340 working there.


Last edited by Ionen on Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:48 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Shibotto
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone is interested I'm trying to fight this in https://bugs.gentoo.org/741556
I opted to do what eselect-opengl did directly inside the nvidia ebuild, so the transition should be seamless even without eselect-opengl. I'm not having much luck on Gentoo's side however, as they simply don't seem to care. :roll:
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
Edit2: Opened an issue about this.
Got good response from maintainer, hopefully 340 on that overlay will be kept and work fine for as long as it can (let the maintainer know if there's problems given neither I nor the maintainer use 340).

Guess opened issue at a good time too given what the last sync did around same time 8O

Edit: on a side-note, if don't want to install ruby for likely unused opencl, virtual/opencl's alternative (dev-libs/opencl-icd-loader) doesn't need it. If want to avoid dependency nonsense likely be easier to uninstall nvidia-drivers+eselect-opengl/cl first (keep binpkgs if worried), and then `emerge -1 dev-libs/opencl-icd-loader` and finally build nvidia-drivers-340 from the overlay.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
Ionen wrote:
Edit2: Opened an issue about this.
Got good response from maintainer, hopefully 340 on that overlay will be kept and work fine for as long as it can (let the maintainer know if there's problems given neither I nor the maintainer use 340).

Guess opened issue at a good time too given what the last sync did around same time 8O

Edit: on a side-note, if don't want to install ruby for likely unused opencl, virtual/opencl's alternative (dev-libs/opencl-icd-loader) doesn't need it. If want to avoid dependency nonsense likely be easier to uninstall nvidia-drivers+eselect-opengl/cl first (keep binpkgs if worried), and then `emerge -1 dev-libs/opencl-icd-loader` and finally build nvidia-drivers-340 from the overlay.


That's good news, and goot hint about ruby !
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molletts
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
on a side-note, if don't want to install ruby for likely unused opencl, virtual/opencl's alternative (dev-libs/opencl-icd-loader) doesn't need it. If want to avoid dependency nonsense likely be easier to uninstall nvidia-drivers+eselect-opengl/cl first (keep binpkgs if worried), and then `emerge -1 dev-libs/opencl-icd-loader` and finally build nvidia-drivers-340 from the overlay.

I just tried that, given that I've got "-opencl -cuda" in my global USE flags as I have no use for compute on my GTX260, but when I 'emerge -1 x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers::noglvnd' it just uninstalls opencl-icd-loader and opencl-headers and reinstalls eselect-opencl.

I'll live with it for now, though. I'm not going to be using this PC for the next few few weeks anyway.
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

molletts wrote:
when I 'emerge -1 x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers::noglvnd' it just uninstalls opencl-icd-loader and opencl-headers and reinstalls eselect-opencl.
That sounds strange, the dependency isn't in it at all, if anything it shouldn't even be possible to install eselect-opencl anymore given it was removed in ::gentoo yesterday, unless added it to a local repo anyway.

Perhaps you have an outdated copy of the overlay, or some mask? It was depending on eselect-opencl until 11 hours ago, and 304.108-r2 revbump is the new one.

Edit:
Code:
# emerge -1av opencl-icd-loader nvidia-drivers:0/340

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N     ] dev-util/opencl-headers-2020.06.16::gentoo  0 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/opencl-icd-loader-2020.06.16::gentoo  USE="-test" ABI_X86="(64) -32 (-x32)" 0 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] virtual/opencl-3-r1::gentoo  ABI_X86="(64) -32 (-x32)" 0 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-340.108-r2:0/340::noglvnd  USE="X driver multilib tools -static-libs" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 0 KiB
No hardware to use it but it built for what it's worth :) Had already updated the test system to use ::noglvnd's xorg-server/mesa. The opencl packages are also very small/quick, not that different than eselect-opencl (no idea why the ruby one is default, but I know too little about using opencl to say anything about it.. I'd like to think the one from KhronosGroup, of all people, is fine).
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
[No hardware to use it but it built for what it's worth :) Had already updated the test system to use ::noglvnd's xorg-server/mesa. The opencl packages are also very small/quick, not that different than eselect-opencl (no idea why the ruby one is default, but I know too little about using opencl to say anything about it.. I'd like to think the one from KhronosGroup, of all people, is fine).


I have a hardware, just installed, works fine (well, I do not use opencl itself). Indeed it is -r2 which has been migrated to virtual/opencl just yesterday.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was running =x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-340* before it was removed. Since I had to switch to nouveau (switching to the overlay was not a good option for me since I prefer to follow the tree), I switched from x11-wm/xmonad on X11 to the wayland tiling window manager gui-wm/sway. nouveau seems to run better on wayland. The video playback performance of mpv seems fine on the old Nvida Quadro FX 2800M.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried the -r2 patch and it works fine, although using that overlay might be the way to go.

I still don't understand why we need libglvnd. I have an Nvidia card and I want to use the official drivers because they are fast, so why do I need all this multiple vendor driver switching stuff that glvnd provides?

I've also never used opencl, so I don't really even care whether any of that works.

I also don't understand why people make it hard to support old hardware, isn't that half the point of Linux? I bought a 9800GT 12 years ago because it was awesome, and it's still better than some of the cheap cards now, so why would I want to spend another $250 to upgrade?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case you don't care about eselect-opengl, I made my overlay targeting 340 specifically: https://gitlab.com/shibotto/nvidia-legacy

The main differences from Gentoo's previous implementation are:
  • Drop the FreeBSD bits
  • nvidia-settings has its own ebuild (I don't know how someone in their right mind ever thought it was a good idea to merge it with the driver)
  • Do inside the ebuild what eselect-opengl used to do

If you are fine with the other overlay blacklisting libglvnd you can safely ignore this message :wink:
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shibotto wrote:
In case you don't care about eselect-opengl, I made my overlay targeting 340 specifically: https://gitlab.com/shibotto/nvidia-legacy

The main differences from Gentoo's previous implementation are:
  • Drop the FreeBSD bits
  • nvidia-settings has its own ebuild (I don't know how someone in their right mind ever thought it was a good idea to merge it with the driver)
  • Do inside the ebuild what eselect-opengl used to do

If you are fine with the other overlay blacklisting libglvnd you can safely ignore this message :wink:



That is interesting ! and I fully agree with you on nvidia-settings, especially since they causes quite a few 32-bit dependencies.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
What about removing that version of the nVidia proprietary driver and switching to a newer maintained one, or switching to the open-source Nouveau driver? Does nVidia no longer maintain drivers that support your still-working card?


What about to stop saying nonsense and push people to use crap software instead of working and available one?

Nouveau is crap, if wasn't clear initially. Even Arch Linux keep 340-108 version available to install. So does NVIDIA.

What is the problem with GENTOO???

There is no one who ask you to use that driver. It's a well spread disease among Gentoo developers to delete ebuilds
for no reason.

:evil:
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
...
Nouveau is crap, if wasn't clear initially. Even Arch Linux keep 340-108 version available to install. So does NVIDIA.

What is the problem with GENTOO???
...

The problem with Gentoo Linux is that even old users apparently haven't yet learned how to use it.
ArchLinux in the official repository, there is only the latest version of the driver, and older versions only in the AUR (Arch User Repository) which would be the equivalent of Gentoo Linux overlays. And if we look in the zugaina:
https://gpo.zugaina.org/x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers
we can find old versions like the nvidia-drivers-340.108

Overlays are part of Gentoo Linux experience. And I believe that every user should have at least one personal overlay.
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, unfortunate official support is gone but there is two notable alternatives now. One which keeps eselect-opengl and another that works without it (see post above).

The latter sounds far preferable at this point and much easier to maintain in the long run (or at least until a new xorg version breaks old drivers as it happened for pre-340 drivers). I also second that nvidia-settings is much better separated :| I'm pretty tired of rebuilding it everytime I just want to rebuild the modules for the kernel, and I can't use -tools because I need libXNVCtrl.a provided by it. Not to mention it makes the ebuild needlessly more complex.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
Hu wrote:
What about removing that version of the nVidia proprietary driver and switching to a newer maintained one, or switching to the open-source Nouveau driver? Does nVidia no longer maintain drivers that support your still-working card?
What about to stop saying nonsense and push people to use crap software instead of working and available one?
That is exactly what I am doing. nVidia has a history of removing support in the current branch for cards that are still working, and then refusing to maintain the older branches that support those cards. That is why we keep seeing people trying to freeze on old driver versions, because they can't use their card with the new driver. Then they come and report problems when other components change in a way that requires them to update their drivers, which is what happened here. Usually, their problem is that the old driver does not work with a new kernel, rather than that it conflicts with a userspace change.

Users can choose to have an nVidia driver version that supports old nVidia cards, but conflicts with the glvnd work which, as I understand it, was championed by nVidia (and indeed, is Copyright (c) 2013, NVIDIA CORPORATION.) or they can choose to use a new version that does not support their old nVidia cards, but is compatible with glvnd. Users could also choose to use Nouveau, which works with glvnd, or to get frustrated and stop using nVidia cards. Finally, nVidia could choose to backport glvnd support to older driver branches, including those that are otherwise end-of-life, since they caused the problem in the first place by pushing glvnd. Users are not objecting to the inability to stay on exactly the driver version they have now. They are objecting to the fact that they must choose among freezing updates, replacing working hardware, or abandoning use of the nVidia proprietary driver. All those options are bad. I suggested the one that is (1) free and (2) less likely to cause more problems as time goes on.
lefsha wrote:
What is the problem with GENTOO???

There is no one who ask you to use that driver. It's a well spread disease among Gentoo developers to delete ebuilds
for no reason.
As shown up thread, libglvnd and eselect-opengl conflict. For good or ill, libglvnd has been declared the way of the future, so eselect-opengl must be dropped. Old nVidia drivers block that, so they must be dropped unless they are patched to be compatible with it. No one who can patch them has stepped up to do so, so they are being dropped.
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