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lefsha
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
I'll even go one further. They should just retire the concept of "everything is a file" and make /dev, /proc and /sys abstract. not directories with files. :))
I bet blood is boiling tonight :))


Hey-hey-hey... Talking this way we might end up discussing registry for Linux... Some will jump out of their hoses... :oops:
Be careful... :lol:

Frankly, I am at your side here. The limited concepts never work. There is no pill to cure all illnesses.
Everything is a file is a broken concept. They tried to bring it to absolute state with Plan9, but failed.

I said it before and I say it now. One has to be reasonable in everything what one is doing.

Recently on LI have seen a drill bit able to drill square holes. The idea is brilliant. But there is a problem,
it will fail in a real life. That business model won't work.

Nice and beautiful ideas not always able to leave the University Lab and enter the World.


Systemd could be a great system if it would not push me to do what THEY want, but instead help me to achieve what I want.
OpenRC does exactly that. I am able turn it backwards and upside down, in an out. Of course there are default services
provided by Gentoo, which I dislike completely. But I am able to turn them off.

In systemd I can control a small fraction of what it starts. Some one smarter, than me decides for me what I have to run.
That is the main issue with systemd for me.

Also I hate miracles, not with computers and programs. If some service is started I should be able to see where it was called
and able to turn it off, even if I break the system by doing that.

On the other side there is something which works fully automatically and doesn't require ANY interaction from admin/user.
In such a case I do prefer such a system comparing the one with manual control.

eudev for me is such a system. I never look at it. I never tune it. It just works.
Therefore I see no benefits for me with static /dev


Even a registry might work well in Linux if designed properly. Standardisation of /etc configs is a good thing,
but the risk is high, that Mr. Pottering may touch it with his hands and destroy the great concept.

Unfortunately we all are just people and like crazy idea about one ring to rule them all...
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lefsha
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Tony0945,

https://archive.org/details/ConnectionsByJamesBurke/Connections/Season+1/Connections+S01E01+-+The+Trigger+Effect.mp4


Did that guy try to sell survivor bunkers? - The ads from the past are way too long and boring. :lol:

Well, we will all die. What ever you do - static or non static /dev...

Bunkers help temporally.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
I concede by default. When you tell me you have something from the 60's that has vacuum tubes, I just concede it's cool. And nothing else has to be said.


But, I'm sitting, atm, on 9980xe, with 128Gb of ram. and rootfs is a zram0 device. As cool as vacuum tubes are... I'm not going back. I actually think nvme is too slow, and ramfs is too wasteful, so zram for me baby.

there is no way back to vacuum tubes.

Me either. But I just sold $500 of my late brother-in-laws tubes. Sold his ham gear for $1,000. Mostly WW II surplus. Honest! Museum stuff.

EDIT:
He had manual for the repair of 1947 and 1948 Zenith televisions. Honestly, I didn't know that anyone had commercial televisions in the 1940s. I knew they were inveneted post-WW II but I thought that was laboratory stuff. My family didn't get a TV until 1952. A Spartan with about a nine inch screen. Learned electronics in High School fixing the old set. Nothing cool like NeddySeagoon and the computer. Our '57 Chevy was all tube radio. '62 was hybrid. '63 was all transistor. Kettering ignition with points. Spark plugs were not that visible on Chevy V-8's. Ten years later I was going to change spark plugs on the '63 that my Mom still owned I got confused and just closed my eyes. My hands knew exactly where to go. Het, my grandfather gave me his 1953 Plymouth for a High school graduation present. A flathead six. With 6v positive ground electrical system.

I've seen changes too. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
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CaptainBlood
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
https://archive.org/details/ConnectionsByJamesBurke/Connections/Season+1/Connections+S01E01+-+The+Trigger+Effect.mp4
Thks 4 the ressource link & bringing back nice memories.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:

eudev for me is such a system. I never look at it. I never tune it. It just works.
Therefore I see no benefits for me with static /dev



I suspect it works so flawlessly basically because most of the time it does not do anything useful :)
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
I suspect it works so flawlessly basically because most of the time it does not do anything useful :)


LOL! As I said, possibly in this gigantic thread, I have it installed to satisfy the xorg-server ebuild, but I don't start the service.

On another system with three ethernet cards, I do run it to have fixed names for the cards based on MAC address, truly predictable, not "predictable unless you move card slots".
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

Code:
$ emerge -pv xorg-server

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild   R    ] x11-base/xorg-server-1.20.8-r1:0/1.20.8::gentoo  USE="ipv6 (libglvnd) suid xorg -debug -dmx -doc (-elogind) -kdrive -libressl -minimal (-selinux) -static-libs (-systemd) (-udev) -unwind -wayland -xcsecurity -xephyr -xnest -xvfb" 0 KiB
works here.

Note the (-elogind) (-systemd) (-udev)

Once upon a time udev did all the hard work in /dev. Making the nodes, symlinks, fixing permissions ...
Well before eudev was forked, the kernel had acquired DEVTMPS, which makes the entries.
(e)udev only tidies up.
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, you are right, Neddyseagoon. I could have sworn that udev was required. perhaps (erroneously) in a previous ebuild.
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Of course, you are right, Neddyseagoon. I could have swotn that udev was required. perhaps (erroneously) in a previous ebuild.
Problem largely relate to both evdev and libinput using udev, and then mouse/keyboard drivers were deprecated (not that this stops Neddy from using those anyway :) They still exist upstream but linux support was removed requiring to revert a commit last I heard)

xorg-server's evdev could be made to work without udev from what I gathered (evdev predates udev existing if anything). A simple patch would disable device discovery (requiring manual configuration), and a more elaborate one could make it rely on /sys. Upstream doesn't seem to have interest in making udev optional for it though. libinput on the other hand is probably too deep into this.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
Problem largely relate to both evdev and libinput using udev, and then mouse/keyboard drivers were deprecated (not that this stops Neddy from using those anyway :) They still exist upstream but linux support was removed requiring to revert a commit last I heard)

Didn't stop me either. I followed the news item switching to libinput. Mouse and keyboard stopped working. Stand wired usb mouse and usb wired keyboard. So i hard booted. Still didn't work and I realized I should have ssh'd in to run "reboot" instead of punching the power button. SSh'd in, moved the drivers to local overlay and rebuilt X. Working again. Reading around, it seems like both evdev and libinput are aimed at laptops, not desktops. Another example of dev's breaking working systems by taking away choices. Yes, Xorg may not support those drivers in the future. I'm thinking of taking it to local overlay and freezing the version. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Must be a decade since I had a problem with Xorg.
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah I see you're already doing that, well only thing that would cause xorg-server's ebuild to need USE=udev is xorg-drivers meta package and xf86-input-evdev.

xf86-input-libinput by itself doesn't even force it on xorg (I think it does its own device discovery, not sure if it matters for xorg-server), but the meta package enables it if used.
Edit: in other words xorg itself barely even need udev at all, so yeah. It has support for OSes without udev too anyway.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to have evdev, but it gave problems. That's probably why I thought udev was required.
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axl
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HllUoT_WE7Y

must be awesum to ignorant. I mean... out of all of things... you had to say libinput. that's like a trigger. there's ONE developer by redhat.

it's even more infuriating when you remember about the heartbleed bug which showed that 3... 3. i repeat 3, 3 developers manage the ssl code. 7 billion people.
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axl
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but you know. sleep tight tonight. coz you're awesum.
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xylophone
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SiberianSniper wrote:
through adwaita, which I already INSTALL_MASK due to it being malware.


Ok, I did a search for why adwaita is malware, but I have to ask... what's the gossip I'm missing here?
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
but you know. sleep tight tonight. coz you're awesum.
Bite me!
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