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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuckin' jihadists. That's the real reason to wipe them out right there. ^
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nokilli, I think the tinfoil hat has slipped.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nokilli wrote:
Less time than we've spent in Afghanistan?
It is not a libertarian position to fail to act while "investigating" for multiple years before you can make a decision. That's just a lack of leadership. And there was an investigation. One that led to answers you may have disagreed with or believed to be incorrect at the time. That doesn't make what you would have chosen to do the Ideal Libertarian (in)Action.

nokilli wrote:
The problem with just going with what The New York Times reports is that, in the event they are wrong--and I believe they were not only wrong but deliberately deceived the American people--you end up with a national security situation even more perilous than the one you started with. Which is exactly where we are today.
You do realize that what mainstream media reports is not what makes decisions, right? I hope so.

nokilli wrote:
Limited government means at the very least a government that abides by its own rules.
The two are unrelated. A government of any size is perfectly capable of being the exception to its own rules.
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nokilli
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
It is not a libertarian position to fail to act while "investigating" for multiple years before you can make a decision. That's just a lack of leadership.

The failure I'm referring to of course is the failure to get the declaration of war from Congress. That was a blatant violation of the Constitution, and making the government accountable for following its own rules is very much a libertarian position.

As for the investigation...
pjp wrote:
And there was an investigation. One that led to answers you may have disagreed with or believed to be incorrect at the time.

Excuse me, but that is plainly false. There was the investigation into "the government response to 9/11", which is a very different animal from an investigation into "who committed 9/11". The integrity of the former is to this day still being challenged by the very people tasked to conduct it. And had we had the latter, as I believe would've been the case had we followed the Constitution and allowed Congress to take up the matter, we very well might have spared ourselves (and the world) one fraudulent war after the other.

This is very much the libertarian position, and I'm frankly a little surprised to have to be making this case, especially today with everything we now know.

There's a lot of shit floating around in this thread, but let me just remind everyone: we killed millions of innocent people for no good reason and why? Because we gave consent to serial warfare after being lied to or otherwise deceived by our own leaders, both in government as well as the media. Get over your self-righteousness because honestly we can't afford to be that kind of stupid any more. We fucked up. When you fuck up, you want to go back and ask, why did I do that? As a nation we still have yet to ask that question, and that is by design I'm afraid; maintaining the facility by which consensus for war can be achieved is deemed more important than any apparatus conceived to forestall a war fought on false pretense. That might as well be our epitaph.

pjp wrote:
You do realize that what mainstream media reports is not what makes decisions, right? I hope so.

Are you actually being serious here?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nokilli wrote:
Are you actually being serious here?
Never mind. The comment "just going with what The New York Times reports" didn't make sense to me. Apologies for any offense, take care.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
nokilli wrote:
Are you actually being serious here?
Never mind. The comment "just going with what The New York Times reports" didn't make sense to me. Apologies for any offense, take care.

Sorry man. The subject still really pisses me off. Why any of that ended up on you I don't know...

Gonna go back to figuring out how to make Steam work. Peace.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a libertarian here is what I think of it.

1. Taxes inhibit productivity.

2. What I make is mine and what you make is yours.

3. Welfare should not exist.

4. Healthcare and law enforcement should be privatized.

5. No business should be forced on any individual that does not desire the service or product of that business.

6. You cannot give something to someone for free without taking it from yourself or someone else.

7. If a pregnant woman wants or doesn't want their own child and chooses to take action about it that's their business after all it's their individual free will and the fruition of their body that gives life.

8. If an entity wants their money to be valuable and sustainable it is empirical that said entity caps their currency.

9. If any entity wishes to create their own physical currency they should be allowed to do so as long as it is clear they're not counterfeiting another currency by doing it.

10. There should be no minimum wage.

8) yeaaahhhhh sweet mama liberty.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mains wrote:
...

Do I have the right to carry a loaded gun?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
mains wrote:
...

Do I have the right to carry a loaded gun?


Yes you see we don't care about that as long as you aren't using it to interfere with or revoke the expression of free will from innocent individuals that don't consent to the involvement with themselves and your fire arm and whom also aren't committing harmful crimes against you or people you care about.

Your gun is yours! And if carrying it around loaded for your protection helps you be a comfortable, prosperous and law abiding citizen then all the merrier.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mains wrote:
And if carrying it around loaded for your protection helps you be a comfortable, prosperous and law abiding citizen then all the merrier.

If this thing ever helps me when out and about, a life changing event has taken place.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
mains wrote:
And if carrying it around loaded for your protection helps you be a comfortable, prosperous and law abiding citizen then all the merrier.

If this thing ever helps me when out and about, a life changing event has taken place.


If you're using your fire arm for a proper reason no libertarian is going to mind your loaded firearm. But the usage of a firearm is the owner's discretion and responsibility. I wouldn't condone say, willfully intimidating people with it since that would be interfering with the freedom of others. Inflicting fear onto people by witnessing your firearm without knowing you and therefor knowing your intent of having a loaded firearm will revoke their expression of freedom and instead they'll rightfully be fearful. Or the use of it to harm anyone that isn't harming anyone else physically or absolutely intending to (tread carefully).

So, loaded but also concealed in a quickly accessible manner. But there are situations where I'm sure you and others would be grateful you have in your possession a loaded firearm. I've even heard of some local pastors carrying a concealed loaded firearm to protect their church members during sunday worship in case of emergency.

Also, libertarians are mostly concerned with freedoms and the expression of liberty. Not the inevitable control that results from forcing concepts of liberty onto others whom do not understand or consent to it. We differ from republicans and conservatives in a big way when dealing with this. Unfortunately people from the right wing just slap "libertarian" onto their agenda to become more appealing to other right-wingers and voters. Ya don't have to be libertarian to say you are. Liberty is just one of the things conservatives and republicans value, but libertarians are concerned with liberty and that's it. We are a non-aggro right wing character. We'd like everyone to chill the fuck out and do something good & productive and get paid for it so that they can live better lives and so can we by using their products or services.

Have a look at the book "The Road to Serfdom." Its a good read besides some foreign slang and it can be dry at times so I read it over many sittings. This is more about what libertarian-ism is than what most people (even so-called libertarians) think it is. Make sure to read over the cautions and clarifications on the page as the language has aged specifically using the term liberal to express ideal liberty and socialism to express national socialism like Nazi Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom
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richk449
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mains wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
mains wrote:
And if carrying it around loaded for your protection helps you be a comfortable, prosperous and law abiding citizen then all the merrier.

If this thing ever helps me when out and about, a life changing event has taken place.


If you're using your fire arm for a proper reason no libertarian is going to mind your loaded firearm.

Not strictly true. I can think of at least one libertarian who minds people carrying loaded firearms around.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
mains wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
mains wrote:
And if carrying it around loaded for your protection helps you be a comfortable, prosperous and law abiding citizen then all the merrier.

If this thing ever helps me when out and about, a life changing event has taken place.


If you're using your fire arm for a proper reason no libertarian is going to mind your loaded firearm.

Not strictly true. I can think of at least one libertarian who minds people carrying loaded firearms around.

But is that a libertarian position? I'm not disturbing anyone. Hell, they don't even know I have it. How is it Libertarian to oppose this?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
richk449 wrote:
mains wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
mains wrote:
And if carrying it around loaded for your protection helps you be a comfortable, prosperous and law abiding citizen then all the merrier.

If this thing ever helps me when out and about, a life changing event has taken place.


If you're using your fire arm for a proper reason no libertarian is going to mind your loaded firearm.

Not strictly true. I can think of at least one libertarian who minds people carrying loaded firearms around.

But is that a libertarian position? I'm not disturbing anyone. Hell, they don't even know I have it. How is it Libertarian to oppose this?

No, it is definitely not a "libertarian" position. But it is also not inconsistent with libertarianism. If a group of people mutually enter into a contractual agreement that on their combined (contiguous) property, they will all agree not to carry loaded weapons, there is nothing inconsistent with libertarianism in that.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
No, it is definitely not a "libertarian" position. But it is also not inconsistent with libertarianism. If a group of people mutually enter into a contractual agreement that on their combined (contiguous) property, they will all agree not to carry loaded weapons, there is nothing inconsistent with libertarianism in that.

So only now you're clarifying that we're talking about private property?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
richk449 wrote:
No, it is definitely not a "libertarian" position. But it is also not inconsistent with libertarianism. If a group of people mutually enter into a contractual agreement that on their combined (contiguous) property, they will all agree not to carry loaded weapons, there is nothing inconsistent with libertarianism in that.

So only now you're clarifying that we're talking about private property?

I think the libertarian position is that all property should be "private" property, so I thought it was sorta implied.

Not that individuals can't purchase property together, and exercise joint ownership of it under contractual terms. But that would still be private property.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Libertarians, Talk to Me Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I'm finding myself looking at Jeff Sessions thinking, "WTF?!" But in reality, he's doing exactly what any proper Republican would expect him to do.

I am currently a registered Republican, but it doesn't really seem right. Fundamentally:

1. I couldn't care less about Israel vs. Palestine; they are two whiny children.
2. The 2nd Amendment is non-negotiable, and the only functioning purpose of a registration system is to know what to confiscate later.
3. I think that a fetus is a separate living entity, so I cannot in good faith accept abortion.
4. Democrats pervasively aborting their own offspring is quite convenient, however.
5. Japan and South Korea should be allowed to have their own nuclear weapons programs, thereby being able to take better care of themselves.
6. I absolutely do not care about any "crimes" anyone commits that do not put other people in danger.
7. If the United States is ever attacked, it should utterly destroy the attacker and leave them in shambles.
8. What consenting adults do in the bedroom is strictly between themselves and God.

How good of a fit am I for the Libertarian party?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroups_and_outgroups

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belongingness

Is it really that important that you self-label and attempt to identify with an ingroup? Is it that important to get validation from some libertarian gatekeepers regarding your own personal beliefs?

Maybe it is. I don't know?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
If a group of people mutually enter into a contractual agreement that on their combined (contiguous) property, they will all agree not to carry loaded weapons, there is nothing inconsistent with libertarianism in that.


If 100% voluntary, then yes.

The key is voluntary.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Libertarians, Talk to Me Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I'm finding myself looking at Jeff Sessions thinking, "WTF?!" But in reality, he's doing exactly what any proper Republican would expect him to do.

I am currently a registered Republican, but it doesn't really seem right. Fundamentally:

1. I couldn't care less about Israel vs. Palestine; they are two whiny children.
2. The 2nd Amendment is non-negotiable, and the only functioning purpose of a registration system is to know what to confiscate later.
3. I think that a fetus is a separate living entity, so I cannot in good faith accept abortion.
4. Democrats pervasively aborting their own offspring is quite convenient, however.
5. Japan and South Korea should be allowed to have their own nuclear weapons programs, thereby being able to take better care of themselves.
6. I absolutely do not care about any "crimes" anyone commits that do not put other people in danger.
7. If the United States is ever attacked, it should utterly destroy the attacker and leave them in shambles.
8. What consenting adults do in the bedroom is strictly between themselves and God.

How good of a fit am I for the Libertarian party?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroups_and_outgroups

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belongingness

Is it really that important that you self-label and attempt to identify with an ingroup? Is it that important to get validation from some libertarian gatekeepers regarding your own personal beliefs?

Maybe it is. I don't know?
Spoken from the person who espouses identity politics. :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Libertarians, Talk to Me Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Spoken from the person who espouses identity politics. :lol:


you appear to be making assumptions about me based off nothing for some reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity rings a bell, but I could be wrong.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Libertarians, Talk to Me Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Old School wrote:
Spoken from the person who espouses identity politics. :lol:


you appear to be making assumptions about me based off nothing for some reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity rings a bell, but I could be wrong.
I'm basing that off of years of reading your posts.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W in Jan 2018: Hmmm, I wonder if I am a libertarian:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I am currently a registered Republican, but it doesn't really seem right...How good of a fit am I for the Libertarian party?


W in March 2018: I am the one who decides who is or isn't libertarian:
wswartzendruber wrote:
richk449 wrote:
I have to say, that although it is definitely wrong, the cyberpunk libertarian in me...

You're not a Libertarian, and it's not just some buzzword you get to label yourself with to be cool.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
W in Jan 2018: Hmmm, I wonder if I am a libertarian:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I am currently a registered Republican, but it doesn't really seem right...How good of a fit am I for the Libertarian party?


W in March 2018: I am the one who decides who is or isn't libertarian:
wswartzendruber wrote:
richk449 wrote:
I have to say, that although it is definitely wrong, the cyberpunk libertarian in me...

You're not a Libertarian, and it's not just some buzzword you get to label yourself with to be cool.

Did you have a question about something?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
richk449 wrote:
W in Jan 2018: Hmmm, I wonder if I am a libertarian:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I am currently a registered Republican, but it doesn't really seem right...How good of a fit am I for the Libertarian party?


W in March 2018: I am the one who decides who is or isn't libertarian:
wswartzendruber wrote:
richk449 wrote:
I have to say, that although it is definitely wrong, the cyberpunk libertarian in me...

You're not a Libertarian, and it's not just some buzzword you get to label yourself with to be cool.

Did you have a question about something?

Yes. Who is John Galt?
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