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JohnBlbec
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yzg wrote:
I would also recommend using "emerge -auvDN world" as update command. In the long run, it will save the time of everyone.


i agree. it is my private long-term experience and i recommend it as well.
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yzg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the update of linguas_* is not bad.

1- Do emerge --sync

2- Edit /etc/portage/make.conf

replace LINGUAS="en fr"
with L10N="en fr"

Of course, you will have different languages.

3- Run the command (thanks to @proteusx)

find /var/db/pkg -name IUSE -exec sed -i 's/+*linguas_[a-z]*_*[A-Z]*@*[a-z]* *//g' {} \;

4- Then, run the update

emerge -auvDN world

You should see a list of packages to update without the linguas_* use flags.
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mv
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yzg wrote:
replace LINGUAS="en fr"
with L10N="en fr"

I would not recommend to replace it but to add it: Otherwise, all packages which previously used LINGUAS and have not changed to L10N (which are most packages, unfortunately) will always install all available languages. If you don't care about harddisk space, it doesn't matter, though.
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mike155
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
L10N="en fr"

Don't forget what the news item says:
Quote:
Note that while the common two letter language codes (like "de" or "fr") are identical, more complex entries have a different syntax because L10N now uses IETF language tags. (For example, "pt_BR" becomes "pt-BR" and "sr@latin" becomes "sr-Latn".) You can look up the available codes in profiles/desc/l10n.desc in the gentoo tree. A detailed description of language tags (aka BCP 47) can be found at: https://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
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figueroa
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the meantime, a NEWS item would have solved a lot of grief and unnecessary rebuilding and resulted in more informed users.
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ulm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

figueroa wrote:
In the meantime, a NEWS item would have solved a lot of grief and unnecessary rebuilding and resulted in more informed users.

In fact, we have announced this change in a news item well in advance: L10N USE_EXPAND variable replacing LINGUAS
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noci2
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulm wrote:
figueroa wrote:
In the meantime, a NEWS item would have solved a lot of grief and unnecessary rebuilding and resulted in more informed users.

In fact, we have announced this change in a news item well in advance: L10N USE_EXPAND variable replacing LINGUAS


I agree that it HAS been announced 18 months ago. So a heads up announcement about the start of the removal of linguas, with a reference to that earlier announcement wouldn't hurt any developer would it...
Also timing is perfect (if one likes storms...) First a GCC 6.4 release (causing some fall out, ..., so "emerge -1e world" just to be safe.... at least that was needed several times in the past after compiler upgrades) then after that was just completed...with most fallout taken care of (aka insert a few bug reports in BZ), the 13.0 -> 17.0 tree upgrade was released again culminating in a "emerge -1e world" again due to various failing compiles due to unclear problems...
Then the lingua's removal... and to top it off the chaos around Spectre & Meltdown although the latter is something Gentoo can't help but it needs attention.
But the former 3 could probably be handled better by issuing some NEWS, possibly some coordination between teams.

After the 13.0 -> 17.0 there was some fall out as wine was also completely "revamped", wine-vanilla refuses to build if the linguas_pl wasn't present.
No work done on that AFAICT, except that adding linguas_pl to the portage.use file did fix it without enabling polish language site wide....
And KDE also releasing patches... one thing needs to be said, the devs are busy...,

Now linguas_pl has been removed from the variables, with wine-vanilla-2.3.0 unable to rebuild and it wants to be rebuild because use flags have changed...
Oh eh, L10N is not incorperated into wine-vanilla.. (Well i am testing nof if it is even sensitive to L10N)

If it IS sensitive then Q is how to specify only one langauge for ONE package.
[P.S.] Most of time any BZ item is disected & dispatched within 24 hours..., this is already a few days old without any response or dispatch.
[P.P.S.] This seems to help:.... now HOW to specify this in a package.use file: L10N="en_US en_GB nl pl" emerge -1 wine-vanilla
as wine-vanilla doesn't have L10N variables.
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proteusx
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The boys need to fix whatever needs no fixing.
"Fixers" are attracted to our world ever since
"Gentoo developer" looks good in one's CV (AKA. resume)
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noci2
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:

"Gentoo developer" looks good in one's CV (AKA. resume)


Only if communications skills are NOT a requirement.
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ulm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noci2 wrote:

Now linguas_pl has been removed from the variables, with wine-vanilla-2.3.0 unable to rebuild and it wants to be rebuild because use flags have changed...
Oh eh, L10N is not incorperated into wine-vanilla.. (Well i am testing nof if it is even sensitive to L10N)

If it IS sensitive then Q is how to specify only one langauge for ONE package.

Note that most likely this issue is a duplicate of bug 617864 (we cannot be absolutely certain, since you haven't included your emerge --info output in the duplicate bug). That bug was reported both before LINGUAS was removed from USE_EXPAND, and before the wine ebuilds were updated for this. So unless causality is violated, this bug has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
Quote:
[P.P.S.] This seems to help:.... now HOW to specify this in a package.use file: L10N="en_US en_GB nl pl" emerge -1 wine-vanilla
as wine-vanilla doesn't have L10N variables.

wine-vanilla doesn't have any l10n_* flags, so specifying L10N cannot make any difference. (Besides, you're using the wrong syntax there, for L10N it should be en-US and en-GB with a hyphen rather than an underscore. This has been explained in the news item.)
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ulm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noci2 wrote:
proteusx wrote:

"Gentoo developer" looks good in one's CV (AKA. resume)

Only if communications skills are NOT a requirement.

We don't force you to use this distro if you don't like it. :roll:

noci2 wrote:
First a GCC 6.4 release (causing some fall out, ..., so "emerge -1e world" just to be safe.... at least that was needed several times in the past after compiler upgrades) [...]

Why don't you switch to e.g. RHEL 7.4? Then you won't be bothered by these nasty C compiler updates, and you can safely stay with gcc-4.8.5 until 2027. :wink:
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
"Gentoo developer" looks good in one's CV (AKA. resume)

noci2 wrote:
Only if communications skills are NOT a requirement.

ulm wrote:
We don't force you to use this distro if you don't like it. :roll:

ulm ... that's a classic, and can be used to justify absolutely anything. What possible counter argument could be given, the "we" have spoken. Where goes the principle "for the community, by the community" of the charter? Not that developers would ever consider themselves subject to that "principle" (as they constantly make the absurd argument that this only governs the foundation) ... but there you have it, we, the community, have spoken. You have to wonder why users get the impression that developers are more interested in adding notches to their resume, than serving the community.

best ... khay
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Users of rolling release distro complaining about rolling release. And yes, that wine bug is unrelated to linguas change...

khayyam wrote:
but there you have it, we, the community, have spoken.

No, khayyam, you are just part of a feedback loop.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
khayyam wrote:
Where goes the principle "for the community, by the community" of the charter? [...] but there you have it, we, the community, have spoken.

No, khayyam, you are just part of a feedback loop.

astrum ... no, all that shows is you resorting to selective quotation again (corrected above). When the charter states "for the community, by the community" that is, we, the community speaking. When developers are reminded of this fact (as I was doing in the above) then the argument invariably becomes "[the charter] doesn't really govern the distro, just the Foundation", or in your case you attempt to dismiss the fact by vague allusions to a "feedback loop", as though the charter is something I've pulled out of nowhere. Nice try ... but fail.

best ... khay
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proteusx
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulm wrote:
noci2 wrote:
proteusx wrote:

"Gentoo developer" looks good in one's CV (AKA. resume)

Only if communications skills are NOT a requirement.

We don't force you to use this distro if you don't like it. :roll:

Are you suggesting going to a distro after 15 years with Gentoo?
Hell no!
By now I can cope with any developer boo-boos or their totalitarian leanings.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
Are you suggesting going to a distro after 15 years with Gentoo?

That seems to be the general response from developers these days. Part of it is a general lack of courtesy in web communications. I was going to say "the public", but I find public courtesy to be increasing, although not on the road. Perhaps it is the anonymity that leads people to be less courteous when at the wheel or the keyboard. I can only marvel at the thought of a service manager at a car dealership telling a complaining customer, "Well nobody forced you to buy a Honda, did they?"

Part of it is the growing split between the developers and the old time community, new users seem to be drinking the systemd kool-aid. The developers are following pied piper Poettering. Again, I reiterate my call to fork Gentoo into a Compiled RedHat and a Gentoo that accommodates old Gentoo, openrc, s6, runit, whatever, anything that can co-exist. Systemd is too inclusive, even the file system hierarchy departing from Linux standards. systemd is not "just another init system", it is a whole new operating system built on top of and ultimately subsuming (kerneld) Linux.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And with that, the usual echo chamber is complete. Congratulations for making another thread look like any other with your involvement.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
And with that, the usual echo chamber is complete. Congratulations for making another thread look like any other with your involvement.

tony0945 wrote:
Part of it is a general lack of courtesy in web communications.

Thank you for providing a prime example.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are three offtopic posters, handwringingly talking up their eternal conflict with certain developments, all failing to acknowledge the false ground on which they entered this thread. Don't expect any other response, you haven't earned it.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Here are three offtopic posters, handwringingly talking up their eternal conflict with certain developments, all failing to acknowledge the false ground on which they entered this thread. Don't expect any other response, you haven't earned it.

astrum ... sounds impressive, but its little more than an attempt to create a metanarrative. You, or ulm, don't get to dictate what the rules of reply are. So, hahahahah "offtopic", "eternal conflict", "false ground", hahahahhhahahah.
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noci2
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulm wrote:

noci2 wrote:
First a GCC 6.4 release (causing some fall out, ..., so "emerge -1e world" just to be safe.... at least that was needed several times in the past after compiler upgrades) [...]

Why don't you switch to e.g. RHEL 7.4? Then you won't be bothered by these nasty C compiler updates, and you can safely stay with gcc-4.8.5 until 2027. :wink:


I came from there a Loooooong time ago. That still is no comparison, and it will haunt & hurt even more after a short while.
The issue is not the compiler, it isn't KDE it isn't that emerge -1e world is needed once in a while. This was the first one where 2 were needed in a row within a week and a half.

A few years back (ok 6 or 7) there would have been an announcement some issues "might" arise when updating.
and i had the impressions (although i might have that completely wrong), that some of the updates were held up or coordinated
to become one big update....
And an advise about the most efficient way to upgrade was given. I think in this instance the advice could have been:
Select new gcc, emerge @system, select new release (aka upgrade to 17.0) and emerge @system, emerge @world.....
Would have saved a few days of compiling.

Now AFTER one runs into issues they need to be remedied. Some of them could have been prevented or otherwise remedied.

I am in a business of designing & maintaining systems that need to run 365.25*24 and are allowed to be unavailable (announced or unannouced) 15 minutes per year MAX (if a system resets one already looses 10 minutes for booting until the customer can work again).
EVERYTHING on those systems is communicated with daily operations & software support ppl in advance, upgrades are tested , tested with customer, tested by install team, then practiced, when there are doubts do it again (only now for no payments) until every one knows the drill before rolling out on 15 sets of clustered systems.
We only supply the OS, deployment configurations & systems software, the customer hires other ppl to install. So communication is vital.

Obviously a rolling update system is of no use there, far to riskey. i do understand the differences and i do not expect such linux systems to do that.
but some planning, some synchronisation can go a long way.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, noci2!
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ulm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noci2 wrote:
And an advise about the most efficient way to upgrade was given. I think in this instance the advice could have been:
Select new gcc, emerge @system, select new release (aka upgrade to 17.0) and emerge @system, emerge @world.....
Would have saved a few days of compiling.

And it would have resulted in a system with inconsistent libraries, part of them compiled with PIE and part without. Therefore, the 17.0 news item leans on the safe side, rather than giving advice that may save compilation time at the cost of potential breakage.
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rosomak
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulm wrote:
We don't force you to use this distro if you don't like it. :roll:


Nobody is forcing you to be a developer of this distro if you don't like it. :roll:

I saw the same with KDE guys - they also knew better and treated every polite remark as an attack to their dignity.
Brave new world ...
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rosomak wrote:
I saw the same with KDE guys - they also knew better and treated every polite remark as an attack to their dignity.
Brave new world ...

If what you so conveniently chose to omit from quoting was a polite remark by your standards, then brave new world indeed. Also good job slandering yet another group of devs without participation in this thread. Alas, just another post to fan the flames.
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